Welcome!

Log in or register to take part.

CONECA (pronounced: CŌ´NECA) is a national numismatic organization devoted to the education of error and variety coin collectors. CONECA focuses on many error and variety specialties, including doubled dies, Repunched mintmarks, multiple errors, clips, double strikes, off-metals and off-centers—just to name a few. In addition to its website, CONECA publishes an educational journal, The Errorscope, which is printed and mailed to members bimonthly. CONECA offers a lending library, examination, listing and attribution services; it holds annual meetings at major conventions (referred to as Errorama) around the country.

CONECA was formed through a merger of CONE and NECA in early 1983. To learn more about the fascinating HISTORY OF THE ERROR HOBBY and THE HISTORY OF CONECA, we encourage you to visit us our main site Here

If you're not a member and would like to join see our Membership Application

We thank everybody who has helped make CONECA the great success that it is today!

Register Now

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Here they are...Foreign currencies (potential) trail dies ?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Here they are...Foreign currencies (potential) trail dies ?

    Copyrighted materials/images. For viewing purposes only. Not allowed to be reproduced in any form or manner by owner (J Nanez). 06-09-2008



    Here’s wealth of information from me. Lots of diplomacy exerted before coin owner allowed me to photograph. Not to mention lots of photography efforts to get the correct lighting angles for good visibility of the trails.
    Max exceeded.

    Other files to follow.

    J
    Attached Files

  • #2
    Here they are...Foreign currencies (potential) trail dies ?

    5 files sent prior. 4 more files here...J
    Attached Files

    Comment


    • #3
      I don't see any trails. The 1975 Canadian cent and the 1983 UK pound show heavily damaged letters from which you can deduce nothing.
      Mike Diamond. Error coin writer and researcher.

      Comment


      • #4
        I agree. I see nothing on these coins that look like trails. I appreciate that you managed to persuade the owner of these coins to photograph them, however, I don't see anything that would make it necessary for 'diplomatic talks', but then again, they are not my coins.
        Bob Piazza
        Lincoln Cent Attributer

        Comment


        • #5
          Thanks both for the quick comments and clarifications.

          FYI, have to diplomatically convince the owner of the coins because he's hesitant to use his materials for the "trail die" theory he doesn't believe in yet (to which I have the same feelings, too). Reason why I'm not as convincing in my explanations to him, and why I'm eager to assist and learn this.

          - Can you please clarify IF the following 3 items:

          1 ) "TRAIL" DIES" - (With my understnding of your definitions) are
          actual "doubled dies". Have also quoted the msg below of the "trail
          die" definitions.

          2) "VERTICAL BARS" in LIBERTY - sometimes seen in front of and/or
          in between the letters of "LIBE".

          3) "BIE" in LIBERTY" - theorized as DIE CHIIP.

          My question is...

          HAVE ANY (OR ALL 3) OF THESE 3 THEORIES BEEN PROVEN BY "CONFIRMED EVIDENCE OF EXISTENCE OF SUCH DIES" EITHER BY YOURS AND/OR OTHER EXPERTS' CONFIRMATION FROM:
          a) PHYSICALLY SEEING ACTUAL DIES
          b) CONFIRMATION BY PERSONNEL AND/OR PUBLICATIONS BY ANY OF
          the P/D/S Mint sites?,

          IF =YES= , THEN THEORIES ARE CONFIRMED.
          IF =NO= , THEN THEY WILL REMAIN as "subjective theories or premiises
          only".
          AND "IF FURTHER" ANOTHER VIABLE OR POSSIBLE THEORY
          CAN BE PROVIDED ... THEN ALL CURRENT ASSUMPTIONS
          WILL NOT HAVE TO BE WRITTEN IN STONES YET.

          Please unbiasely provide your thoughts.
          Thanks,
          J

          Quote...
          Simple stated, trails are a continuation of a design element and not a duplication of a design element. They are formed at the end of hubbing when the face of the die drags across the hub face, causing the high points of the hub to "dig into" the die face. This action causes troughs to be formed on the die face with a direction that is opposite of the die movement across the hub.

          We have seen "trails" (which also include wavy steps) on the Lincoln cent, the Jefferson nickel, the Roosevelt dime, some of the state quarters, the Sacagawea dollar coin and the Washington dollar coin. Also, "trails" can be seen on the obverse and reverse dies.

          As far as direction; at first, it was thought that "trails" (which include wavy steps) were confined to just certain areas of direction. It has since been established that directions can happen in all 360 degrees. However, some directions are more frequent than others (180, 190, 300 and 330 degrees seem to occur more often than other directions).

          While not all is known concerning "trail" dies, there is a growing confidence that just how these anomalies are formed is a known factor. While some still do believe that this is a doubled die, others, like myself feel that this is an entirely different variety type.

          BJ Neff ......Unquote.



          __________________
          Member of CONECA (BOD), Coppercoins, CFCC & FUN.

          Comment


          • #6
            1. The definition states that they are NOT doubled dies.

            2. It is not clear what you are referring to.

            3. They are not theorized, they are die breaks, pure and simple.

            One does not simply waltz into the MINT and ask to see all their dies for a certain denomination and that is what must be done if an anomaly was to be confirmed as being on that die. Also take into the consideration that all dies are defaced when there are finished with. voiding the face of the die of any design element.

            All theories are subjective.

            There are no P/D/S MINT sites. The U. S. Mint does not run a site to answer questions concerning anomalies found on coins. The Mint personnel have a reluctance to tell outside sources exactly what is happening for most of the operations at those facilities are classified. Which means "on a need to know basis"

            Wavy steps and Trails have been confirmed by the MINT to their existence. They know that they are their, however, the MINT will not conduct a specialized study to why they occur.

            BJ Neff
            Member of: ANA, CCC, CONECA, Fly-in-club, FUN, NLG & T.E.V.E.C.

            Comment


            • #7
              J,
              I think your questions are pretty easy to answer.....Yes, Yes, and Yes. The only theory here is how the trails are actually made, and I believe BJ has done as good a job as anyone describing what he thinks causes them. Needless to say, they do exist, and there are over 600 of them documented on his site. As far as whether or not it is a doubled die, your very own quote of BJ's statement answers that .
              While not all is known concerning "trail" dies, there is a growing confidence that just how these anomalies are formed is a known factor. While some still do believe that this is a doubled die, others, like myself feel that this is an entirely different variety type.
              As far as BIEs, and the vertical bars you mention existing...they sure do, and by the thousands. I have hundreds of them here. I have attached a photo of four different ones. There is no doubt these are die cracks/chips. There are also some old publications that were written with only these in mind. There is no theory involved here.

              I know BJ is replying to this thread the same time I am, so any duplication of responses is coincidental.


              Bob Piazza
              Lincoln Cent Attributer

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by wavysteps View Post

                All theories are subjective.

                BJ Neff
                I would disagree with this assessment. A theory is not a conjecture; a theory is an explanatory mechanism. Some theories are weakly supported by evidence, some theories are strongly supported by evidence, and some are so firmly established that they are incontrovertible.

                Influenza is nicely explained by germ theory, don't you think? And the theory of a heliocentric solar system nicely explains the rising and the setting of the sun.

                As far as BJ's theory, I think it is a rather strong theory, with plenty of indirect evidence to support it.
                Mike Diamond. Error coin writer and researcher.

                Comment


                • #9
                  i don't mean to be a complete ass (most of my friends would wholeheartedly disagree) but i always have to see what pics you are posting, usually i get a good laugh. I get very excited at times for coins i find out later to be damage or a very common find, but that will happen with learning. i haven't been doing this even two full years but i have emersed myself in it pretty well. I would only say this, you quote pretty often what has been said about trails/wavysteps but it just doesn't seem to me that you really have studied the pictures that came along with it. if you personally know others who are into the trails, get them in your hand and really look at them, once you have seen a few in hand it will be much easier to spot them. i you take great pics which will help out in the long run but i think you see much more than the camera does. now that i got my top secret clearence to view these pics, i am excited to see more. i have posted some trails for the utah 1/4's take a look at those also, it may help
                  Jimmy Ehrhart
                  previous member of CONECA and C.F.C.C.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Here they are...Foreign currencies (potential) trail dies ?

                    My sincere thanks to you all for expressing yourselves which I know
                    are backed by strong knowledge and exprience.

                    I have taken all your contexts which I'll be using while moving on to this
                    now I see to be a very interesting and exciting hobby.

                    I can tell my other new collector friends about this knowledgeable team.
                    And this forum to be a good info in this hobby.

                    J

                    Comment

                    Working...
                    X