PDA

View Full Version : 1988 Transitional Reverse Cent


AgCollector
08-19-2007, 02:57 PM
Hi All,
After reading about the recent discovery of a 1988 cent made with the reverse die types intended for 1989, read about at the variety vista website here:

http://www.varietyvista.com/1988PRDV006%20cent.htm

I started to look for this curiousity. I believe I've found one, which has the characteristic flared G of the designer's initials, see photos. Are there other markers? It seems like the 1989 type to me but I'd like to double check.

Some of the die scratches on the obverse are the same as detailed on the variety vista coin but I can't see any real indication of the die clash that's illustrated on the obverse.

Thanks all!

wavysteps
08-19-2007, 03:11 PM
It does look like you may have the one. James Wiles will be better at determining if it the transitional coin. The die clash, which is one of the die markers, may have not yet happened on your coin and that is why you are not seeing it.

BJ Neff

JamesWiles
08-19-2007, 04:07 PM
The designer's initials are the right style the transitional piece. As BJ said, your coin could be before the clash. Or it could have a different obverse die. Or it could be a different die altogether. I would love to see it in person. Send me an email for the details.

JamesWiles
09-05-2007, 07:45 PM
Congratulations!! This is indeed the transitional RDV-006. The die state is a little earlier than the discovery piece, so the clash does not show yet. But the die scratches are all there. I hope to have it up on varietyvista soon.

AgCollector
09-06-2007, 03:25 PM
Congratulations!! This is indeed the transitional RDV-006. The die state is a little earlier than the discovery piece, so the clash does not show yet. But the die scratches are all there. I hope to have it up on varietyvista soon.

Thanks! Am I correct in thinking that because the die scratches are there, it's the same die pair as the discovery piece? Does it then imply that there's not many out there since there's only one die pair (so far)?

foundinrolls
09-07-2007, 12:30 AM
James can correct me if I'm wrong but it may take a little time to see how many pairs (is that a word) of dies are involved. As people begin to look for these, more evidence of other die combinations may show up.

Thanks,
Bill

JamesWiles
09-07-2007, 11:05 AM
Yes, yours is from the same die pair and right now it is the only one reported. We will just have to wait and keep looking for others before we can determine how rare it might or might not be.

Steven
09-07-2007, 05:31 PM
Is this what you are discussing about a transitional reverse die. I found this one on a 1988D. If that is what it is. Not sure if I am on the right track here. Please excuse the newbeeness:)

Steven

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d84/stevenbingham/PICT1414.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d84/stevenbingham/Copy2ofCopyofCopyofCopyofblank.jpg

wavysteps
09-07-2007, 07:58 PM
Hi Steven - Would you believe that I more than expected to see one on a 1988-D Lincoln cent, that is the transitional design of the designer's initials.
Of course, I am sure that James Wiles will want to see this coin to verify what it is and add it to the site.

Congratulations on a nice find Steven.

BJ Neff

Steven
09-07-2007, 08:09 PM
Thanks BJ,
I was looking through rolls and took a brake to serf the coin sites and saw this thread. Started looking again and found this one. I won't get my hopes up that it is unique;)
Steven

AgCollector
09-08-2007, 09:37 PM
Thanks BJ,
I was looking through rolls and took a brake to serf the coin sites and saw this thread. Started looking again and found this one. I won't get my hopes up that it is unique;)
Steven

Nice find!

JamesWiles
09-10-2007, 12:06 PM
Steven: I beleive that indeed is the RDV-006 and thus a transitional for the 1988-D. I would love to see it first hand for photography and inclusion in the CONECA files.

Car10
09-12-2007, 08:44 PM
When was this transitional variety originally discovered?

To date, how many (confirmed and/or unconfirmed) examples are known to exist?

wavysteps
09-13-2007, 08:27 AM
Hi Car10 - The first transitional cent, the 1988P with a 1989 reverse, was discovered about two months ago. I believe that James Wiles has attributed two.

The discovery of a possible 1988D transitional cent (I am 99% sure that it is) by Steven, happened in this forum and hopefully Steven has made contact with Dr. Wiles so that he may examine this possible new addition to the files.

Due to the nature of how these transitional coins are made, I doubt that many will surface and will have a count similar to the 1992D Lincoln cent with a closed AM of AMERICA.

BJ Neff

Car10
09-13-2007, 07:52 PM
Thank you for the info. I have an interest because I too have sent one to Dr. Wiles for confirmation. He received it yesterday. From him it is going to ICG.

JamesWiles
09-14-2007, 10:51 AM
Car10: Yours indeed is the transitional RDV-006. It is the stage B, EMDS and is now on its way to ICG. Yours makes number 3 I have confirmed, all from the same die.

Car10
09-14-2007, 06:31 PM
Great News!! Thank you sir.

AgCollector
09-14-2007, 07:38 PM
Great News!! Thank you sir.

Car10, I see you're in Boston. I'm in Maine and given that we've found 2 out of the 3 1988 RDV-006 cents so far, I wonder if they're localized in the Northeast- lucky us!

Car10
09-14-2007, 08:07 PM
That could be. It would make sense that it was originally released in this general area. Perhaps the original release of these coins, almost 19 years ago, was somewhere in the northeast. A coin could travel quite a distance in that amount of time but I don't think mine got out much though. It must have been hidden away for most of those years. I am expecting to get it back from ICG as at least MS-66RD.

Steven
09-27-2007, 10:44 PM
Not sure here, what do you think about this 1989P. Maybe used the 88 reverse die in 89 ??? The position seems to be a bit different as well. The second photo is for comparison.
Steven

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d84/stevenbingham/19892.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d84/stevenbingham/19891.jpg

AgCollector
09-28-2007, 06:37 AM
I've been looking for these too... I think yours is a normal 1989 reverse that has seen a lot of wear, and polishing- even though the letters are thinner than normal, the shape is still the normal shape.

wavysteps
09-29-2007, 09:03 PM
Hi Steven - Took my a bit of thinking on this one and even though the die is worn, I do believe that this is the RDV-006 and not the RDV-005 reverse (or it is the correct reverse for that year, 1989) that we are looking at in both pictures.

If you look at the "F" you will notice that in 1988, both arms were approximately the same length, while in 1989 the middle arm was much short her that the top.

Question; did you ever get the 1988-D with possible RDV-006 attributed? That is the one that is very interesting.

BJ Neff

Steven
09-29-2007, 11:28 PM
BJ,
I sent you a PM.

Car10
10-01-2007, 09:20 PM
I'm a little dissappointed. I got it back from ICG today in a MS64RD holder. It is designated as "CONECA variety RDV-006 reverse style of 1989". ICG appears to grade modern Lincolns more strictly than NGC does. Still I'm glad it's home!

AgCollector
10-01-2007, 09:57 PM
I'm a little dissappointed. I got it back from ICG today in a MS64RD holder. It is designated as "CONECA variety RDV-006 reverse style of 1989". ICG appears to grade modern Lincolns more strictly than NGC does. Still I'm glad it's home!

Thanks for posting that- I was wondering how they would attribute it.

wavysteps
10-01-2007, 10:45 PM
Hi Car10 - Somehow I do not feel sorry for you (LOL) for if this die has near the value of the 1992-D Lincoln cent, closed AM, which is a transitional coin, which I think it will, you are looking at a very, Very, VERY pretty penny.

Conratulations on a great find and an excellent grade.

BJ Neff

Car10
10-01-2007, 11:19 PM
Hi Car10 - Somehow I do not feel sorry for you (LOL) for if this die has near the value of the 1992-D Lincoln cent, closed AM, which is a transitional coin, which I think it will, you are looking at a very, Very, VERY pretty penny.

Conratulations on a great find and an excellent grade.

BJ Neff

Thanks for the words of encouragement. I'll have happy numismatic dreams tonight.

Steven
10-02-2007, 06:34 PM
Received the 1988D back from James Wiles today listed as 1988D RDV-006, Die 1, stage A, EDS.

Thank you Mr. Wiles.
Steven

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d84/stevenbingham/Copy2ofCopyofCopyofCopyofblank.jpg

wavysteps
10-02-2007, 06:42 PM
Steven - Great going and a very nice find. Just goes to show you what is waiting to be found out there.

CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!!!!!!

BJ Neff

Car10
10-03-2007, 07:12 AM
Beautiful! Nice job Steven. Add another variety to the list of Lincoln cents to be on the lookout for. Thank you for the info and awesome photos. Just curious, what part of the country did you find that in? Did you find it searching circulated rolls?

Car10
10-03-2007, 11:08 AM
Thank you, Dr. Wiles, for all your help, not only in geting it attributed and certified but in finding it in the first place. If I had not seen the Variety Vista website I wouldn't have known of it's existance. Thank you, thank you THANK YOU!!

Steven
10-03-2007, 05:41 PM
Car10,
Found 88D in S/E Missouri searching circulated rolls.

Steven

Car10
10-03-2007, 05:51 PM
Thanks Steven.
F.Y.I.
I just, this afternoon, got in the mail a coin I had sent to Dr. Wiles for attribution. It is a 1989 Lincoln cent with RDV-005(reverse style of 1988). He said that it is a NEW LISTING. Another one for us to BE ALERT for!:)

AgCollector
10-03-2007, 06:29 PM
Thanks Steven.
F.Y.I.
I just, this afternoon, got in the mail a coin I had sent to Dr. Wiles for attribution. It is a 1989 Lincoln cent with RDV-005(reverse style of 1988). He said that it is a NEW LISTING. Another one for us to BE ALERT for!:)

Wow, congratulations!

Car10
10-03-2007, 06:35 PM
Thank you sir.

wavysteps
10-03-2007, 07:28 PM
Agcollector - Sounds like the MINT was free wheeling at the end of that decade.

Conratulations on a great find. Now all we need to do is find the 1989-D mate and we will be all set.

BJ Neff

AgCollector
10-04-2007, 10:12 AM
Agcollector - Sounds like the MINT was free wheeling at the end of that decade.

Conratulations on a great find. Now all we need to do is find the 1989-D mate and we will be all set.

BJ Neff

Yes, the mint certainly wasn't as careful as it could have been. But if they were more careful, it wouldn't be so much fun looking through cents!

AgCollector
10-04-2007, 03:39 PM
Thanks Steven.
F.Y.I.
I just, this afternoon, got in the mail a coin I had sent to Dr. Wiles for attribution. It is a 1989 Lincoln cent with RDV-005(reverse style of 1988). He said that it is a NEW LISTING. Another one for us to BE ALERT for!:)

Not to be a pessimist, but I just saw the coin on varietyvista and I have to say that my first impression is that it is not actually RDV-005 but rather a RDV-006 with a weak strike with an overly polished die.

You can see in the photos that the "east" side of the coin is not as fully struck, such as in the top of the letter "E" in AMERICA in the first photo.

While the "G" in the designer's initials seems to lack the "flange", the shape of the G is that of the RDV-006 letter and not the RDV-005 letter. In particular, the RDV-005 letter is thinner and taller, and the lower part of the G does not extend much further east than the top of the letter (I've tried to show this with the black line in the first attached photo). Whereas, the RDV-006 letter G is shorter, wider, and the lower part of the G does extend further east than the top (second image).

Finally, I added the same lines to the 1989 cent.

Also, the middle arm of the initial "F" is shorter in RDV-006 and the coin in question appears to have the shorter middle arm.

Car10
10-06-2007, 10:40 AM
To tell you the absolute truth, after I had mailed the coin I had feelings of regret at the possibility of embarassment had the coin turned out to be nothing more than an overpolished die. But that is why I sent it to the experts in the first place. I am on cloud nine right now and enjoying it. Please don't kick me off just yet.

wavysteps
10-11-2007, 09:11 AM
This should make you happy Car10. Last night at the Central Florida Coin Club meeting, I was asked to look at a 1989 Lincoln cent with a RDV-005 reverse and sure enough, it was the transitional cent. This seemed to be in an earlier die state that the one you have. If I can borrow it at the next meeting, I'll take some pictures and put them on the forum.

BJ Neff

JamesWiles
10-11-2007, 11:30 AM
BJ: I would love to see this confirmation piece. Any chance you could put in a good word for me?

wavysteps
10-11-2007, 11:42 AM
Hi James - I sure will try. I am pretty sure that the person will be willing to send it to you. Will let you know in about two weeks (our next meeting).

BJ Neff

Car10
10-11-2007, 08:47 PM
That IS good news! I'll be looking forward to hearing Dr. Wiles observations. Thanks for the info.

JamesWiles
10-24-2007, 12:52 PM
Just a note to update everyone on this variety. I have seen a couple of suspected 1989 RDV-005 cents, but after careful study have concluded that they are die deteriorated, LDS RDV-006 styles. My enthusiasm for a confirmation piece is waning. What I like about Mr. Carten's piece is the total absence of the lower serif of the G. But this could be caused by deterioration/abrasion. What has me suspecting that it is not an RDV-005 is the distance from the building. I have a couple of more "suspects" coming in for examination. I will wait until then to make a final decision on the possibility of removing this transitional from the files.

I appreciate all the effort you guys have put into finding a confirmation piece. Please keep looking and reporting what you are finding. That is the only way we can make an accurate decision.

3ónicker
10-27-2007, 08:18 AM
Bj & james i belive he is talking about the one i let him take and absolutely you can look at it. if it truly is the one that would be awesome. you just never really know. it's funny because they way i recieved that one was while walking a bumish looking guy was walking towards me with a coffee can of pennys. he had said he had like three $ of them and he would trade me for two $bills, i didn't have any cash with me but i told him i'd give him a smoke for a handful which he did. So, i may have broke the case and got what looks so far to be a rare one for a single cigarette.

AgCollector
11-18-2007, 05:45 PM
Hi All,
I have decided to auction off the the piece that I started this thread with- please send me a personal message or e-mail if you're interested.

Thanks!

AgCollector

JamesWiles
11-21-2007, 03:50 PM
Just a note to let everyone know that I have delisted the 1989 RDV-005. My apologies for jumping the gun on this one. After seeing a half dozen additional specimens and further comparisons between the RDV-005 and RDV-006 designs, I have concluded that these are all LDS and over abraded examples of the RDV-006 design. Thanks for your patience and your continued help in sending in coins to study. This is what makes CONECA run. Working together we can unravel the mysteries of our coins.

wavysteps
11-21-2007, 05:42 PM
James - I agree with your decision, however, there is no need to apologize. The 1989-D with what looked like a RDV-005 was made with sound judgment on your part. And who knows, there may be some out there.

BJ Neff

AgCollector
11-21-2007, 05:57 PM
James - I agree with your decision, however, there is no need to apologize. The 1989-D with what looked like a RDV-005 was made with sound judgment on your part. And who knows, there may be some out there.

BJ Neff

I agree. I, for one, am still searching!

Car10
11-21-2007, 07:46 PM
I have delisted the 1989 RDV-005. My apologies for jumping the gun on this one. After seeing a half dozen additional specimens and further comparisons between the RDV-005 and RDV-006 designs, I have concluded that these are all LDS and over abraded examples of the RDV-006 design. Thanks for your patience and your continued help in sending in coins to study. This is what makes CONECA run. Working together we can unravel the mysteries of our coins.

Ouch!Thank you for all the extra work you had to put into this one. Happy Thanksgiving ALL.:)

Car10
11-22-2007, 09:16 AM
I have decided to auction the "controversy coin" as a collectible numismatic novelty. As self promotion is not allowed, you can PM me for details.
Thanks, David.

Car10
11-25-2007, 06:48 PM
Hi All,
I have decided to auction off the the piece that I started this thread with- please send me a personal message or e-mail if you're interested.

Thanks!

AgCollector

The AU raw coin sold for $157.55 following a last minute flurry of bids.

brefos77
12-08-2007, 12:09 AM
First off, I'd like to thank Patrick Gaughan for his find. it allowed me to do my own hunting for them. I sent an e-mail to Mr. Wiles with these same photos to assure it's authenticity. If it is what I hope it is, how many have been officially found, and is there a set value for them yet?

By the way, I live in North Carolina.


http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h17/brefos77/1988head.jpg

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h17/brefos77/1988tail.jpg

Car10
12-08-2007, 08:28 AM
Brefos, It certainly looks like you found number six!!! congatulations!! You have also found the first one that wasn't in the Northeastern U.S. The first was in Syracuse, NY. Number two in Southern Maine. The third in Massachusetts. The fourth in Maine, fifth in northeast PA and now yours in NC. Nice job! The second one was sold to a ebay bidder(e_kkm) from CA for $157.55 about a week ago. It was AU raw. IMHO this variety has great potential. With more publicity I think interest in it will grow and with interest so will go the value. I'm hoping to see it listed in the fifth edition of The Cherrypicker's Guide. Number three has beed graded by ICG as MS64RD. Are you going to have yours graded? It definately looks worthy of it. Nice photos too. Thanks for posting them here.

brefos77
12-08-2007, 11:18 AM
I've notice a pretty significant difference in mine
and Patrick's coin (the one on varietyvista.com).

Look at mine where the arrow is pointing
(under the top of the curve). There is "tail" going
left and right, but in Patrick's it stays inside of
the curve of the G. It may not mean anything, but
it could be a different die or something.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h17/brefos77/compare88.jpg

Car10
12-08-2007, 10:36 PM
That's a question we'll have to leave for Dr. Wiles to address.

Car10
12-26-2007, 06:02 PM
Patrick's coin is for sale on Ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/1988-P-RDV-006-DIE-2-STAGE-A-EDS-LINCOLN-CENT_W0QQitemZ140192230699QQihZ004QQcategoryZ524QQ ssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

He may have done better posting some photos instead of just using a link to the varietyvista site.

wavysteps
12-26-2007, 07:10 PM
I agree David.

BJ Neff

brefos77
12-27-2007, 02:43 AM
Wow, I guess we'll see if others are interested in this coin. Patrick, I hope you sell it for what you want. I'll be watching!

brefos77
01-12-2008, 12:10 PM
I got an email from Dr. Wiles today. Here's an excerpt:

"Your coin is indeed RDV-006. It is now listed as die 4, stage A, EDS. I will get it up on www.varietyvista.com shortly."

brefos77
02-23-2008, 03:14 PM
Here is the link to my coin.

http://www.varietyvista.com/1988PRDV0064%20cent.htm

Is everyone still looking for these?

Car10
02-23-2008, 07:49 PM
Here is the link to my coin.

http://www.varietyvista.com/1988PRDV0064%20cent.htm

Is everyone still looking for these?

I can't speak for everyone but I'm still looking for the next one.;)

ONTREC
03-08-2008, 10:54 PM
new member here. is this a RVD-006 from denver? here is a url with photos of 1988-D i found in a $50.00 dollar bank bag of pennies on thursday. http://ontrec.spaces.live.com/photos/

brefos77
03-09-2008, 06:55 AM
new member here. is this a RVD-006 from denver? here is a url with photos of 1988-D i found in a $50.00 dollar bank bag of pennies on thursday. http://ontrec.spaces.live.com/photos/


Hi and welcome! Your picture is waaay too small to tell anything. I hope it is, though.

Car10
03-09-2008, 02:29 PM
is this a RVD-006 from denver? here is a url with photos of 1988-D i found [/url]

Hi ONTREC, I increased the size and looked at your photos and I am still unable to determine for sure if your coin is the second reported Denver example of the 1988 transitional. May I suggest contacting Dr. James Wiles to see if he can examine the coin for you to determine for sure. I too, hope it is. :)

AgCollector
03-09-2008, 03:04 PM
new member here. is this a RVD-006 from denver? here is a url with photos of 1988-D i found in a $50.00 dollar bank bag of pennies on thursday. http://ontrec.spaces.live.com/photos/

Sorry to say, doesn't look like RDV-006 to me.

brefos77
04-21-2008, 05:04 PM
http://home.sc.rr.com/stereo3dgames/Die_Variety_News_Issue_13.pdf

Snowman
04-21-2008, 05:35 PM
i'm real surprised how far this variety has gone from the James W looking at my 1988 Lincoln and how big this thread has gotten from his variety vista web site and the article in Coin World & now Die Variety News - thanks again Snowman

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa51/pennyfinder24/DSC00720.jpg

Car10
04-21-2008, 09:25 PM
After roughly one year since it's discovery by Jeff Snow, by my count, of the Philadelphia version, there have been a total of fifteen pieces found. They are owned among ten different people.
Steven Bingham's Denver coin still stands alone.

ONTREC
04-22-2008, 12:28 AM
Hi ONTREC, I increased the size and looked at your photos and I am still unable to determine for sure if your coin is the second reported Denver example of the 1988 transitional. May I suggest contacting Dr. James Wiles to see if he can examine the coin for you to determine for sure. I too, hope it is. :) Thanks For looking i have also found one other denver example i will post the picture in a few minutes

Car10
04-22-2008, 08:56 PM
This variety is featured in the latest issue of Billy Crawford's Die Variety News Magazine. (http://home.sc.rr.com/dievarieties/Die_Variety_News.html):)

billscoins
04-25-2008, 11:44 AM
Hi, guys
I am little confused? I have a 1989 with what seems to be the same reverse (type 2) as my 1998 type 2 reverse. See picture of 1989 attached is this one of the coins you are talking about?
Thanks, Bill
I get it now this is rdv-006

Car10
04-29-2008, 06:10 AM
The 1988 transitionals are featured in an article on the website about.com (http://coins.about.com/)in their coins section. The author, Susan Headley, says she expects the values of transitionals in general to rise significantly when they are better understood by collectors. The variety seems to be gaining more popularity all the time. There are even two active auctions on eBay running now.

wavysteps
04-29-2008, 07:33 AM
You definitely hit the nail on the head. And, of course, the 2008 Silver Eagle with 2007 reverse (transitional) will hype the matter even more!

BJ Neff

Car10
05-02-2008, 08:11 PM
Two seperate auctions for the 1988 RDV-006 Lincoln cent transitional variety ended today. One of the auctions ended at $202.52 and the other coin brought $356.01. There are two new auctions, listed only hours ago, for this same variety. These newly listed coins are two among a handful that were recently examined by Billy Crawford in preparation for his article in the most recent issue of Die Variety News Magazine (http://home.sc.rr.com/dievarieties/Die_Variety_News.html).