1994d DOUBLE DIE?

[billscoins]

And no matter how loud you shout it on your end, you (and others) can't impose a ridiculous and arbitary endpoint to the minting process that excludes events that produce distinct and widely separated raised design elements on the coin's surface.

Amen, Bill

[diamond]

Extreme machine doubling that produces an extra set of well-separated, raised design elements is not a new phenomenon, although it seems to have gotten more common after 1999. The vast majority of machine doubled coins show only marginal shelving or subtle smearing of the design. These are naturally less interesting, but because they result from the same malfunction, these too should be considered minting errors, in my opinion.

As I see it, if we remove the pejorative and unecessary word "damage", we can appreciate these defects for what they are. It's kind of like the sterile argument as to what does and does not constitute a "variety". If we just dispense with the term, we can appreciate each die defect on its own terms.

[billscoins]

Extreme machine doubling that produces an extra set of well-separated, raised design elements is not a new phenomenon, although it seems to have gotten more common after 1999. The vast majority of machine doubled coins show only marginal shelving or subtle smearing of the design. These are naturally less interesting, but because they result from the same malfunction, these too should be considered minting errors, in my opinion.

As I see it, if we remove the pejorative and unecessary word "damage", we can appreciate these defects for what they are. It's kind of like the sterile argument as to what does and does not constitute a "variety". If we just dispense with the term, we can appreciate each die defect on its own terms.

Mike,
Maybe a page on the website should be opened up for new discoveries of Machine Doubling. Good examples could be posted with pictures. From discussions an estimate of their rarity might develop as time passes? This would be a location for collectors to expose their new finds.
Thanks, Bill

[atrox001]

Something I haven’t seen mentioned yet…is how common MDD is. Why all the excitement?

Larry Nienaber

[billscoins]

Something I haven’t seen mentioned yet…is how common MDD is. Why all the excitement?

Larry Nienaber

That's the beauty of it. They can be found in change. Once again people of limited means can collect a large group of different coins that they can trade among themselves without having to work within a dealer-controlled environment. To be a kid again.

[diamond]

Machine doubling as a whole is common. Extreme examples are not. It's all a matter of severity.

[wheat cents]

Balance is in order here

That's the beauty of it. They can be found in change. Once again people of limited means can collect a large group of different coins that they can trade among themselves without having to work within a dealer-controlled environment. To be a kid again

A wonderful view... My kudos to the above statement. Distorted views creep in when we loose sight of the basic enjoyment of collecting and make it more than what it is.

MDD is by definition damage and NOT part of the minting process. The question of its collectibility is a non-issue. You are free to collect anything you desire. The question of its premium value is determined by the market place. But until a change in the definition is adopted by a counsel of the experts, it is damage and not an error or a variety, no matter how loud you shout it.

Another wonderful view and kudos to James Wiles. Consistent, Reliable, and Honest Standards are of the utmost importance for the Integity of what any Organization stands for.

Machine doubling as a whole is common. Extreme examples are not. It's all a matter of severity

and ...a matter of opinion.

I have seen many "extreme" examples of MDD and their value to me is neither enhanced or diminished because of the amount of extremeness. To one that collects MDD then it would mean value and dollars signs $$$ . But that is not what it is about.

To use an over used phrase "It is what it is" . If a coin is VF 20 it is VF 20. If a coin is Cleaned it is Cleaned. If it was MDD it was MDD . If it is a Hub Variety it is a Hub Variety. If it is a one of a kind Train Wreck it is a one of a kind Train Wreck.

All have value. Hey...they are coins. Everything else is a person's opinion and actually if you stop to think should be holds the most value and held in high regard.

Keep up the great work in all your areas of expertise. Stick to your opinions and highest ethics, and all will be good.

Thanks for you leadership in a fine organization.

[billscoins]

A voice of reason? In coin collecting? Who let you in here?.....
I believe we all are consumed by our passions at times and need to remember that " one man's garbage is another man's gold" (though I don't like it when someone tells me what I think is gold is garbage . )
A lot of people feel a coin with MDD is only a damage coin. I'm sure that they know what an undamaged coin is (though it is impossible to make anything 100% prefect). I respect those who have devoted time and study in their pursuit of knowledge and I thank them for sharing it (they do it freely).
I hope that they will have patience with those of us who may see things from a different viewpoint. Some of us collect things, which do not interest them. I feel that new collectors may find an outlet in these areas whenever they need to expand their interests. I hope CONECA will continue to respond and grow as these old question keep being asked. Thanks for your help, EVERYONE. Bill

[billscoins]

Hi everyone, back to what started this tread. These coins I find very interesting. The doubling on the lips on these 2 coins........ Seems to transition into the feature and has a slight rounding of the outside line plus is above the surface. Machine doubling? I still wonder how this kind of doubling could happen in only this area on the 2 coins? I love a good mystery.
Any thoughts would be appreciated, Bill

P.S. The mushy areas of doubling on the IGWT, I agree are probably Die Deterioration Doubling. My quote from thread #4:
“ I think the obverse die must have at least one of the forms incused into its surface. My experience with working copper and nickel is that both are very gummy materials that try to stick to die steel. I believe what we may be looking at here is, cases were nickel has fused itself to the surface of the obverse die (die ran without cutting oil?) and a mint employee has carefully removed it with a dermal tool or die grinder (Such things do happen in manufacturing on a regular basis). The area of the die steel where the nickel sticks must be ground away and smoothed out. These areas are now below the die surface and their surface has diffused nickel molecules mixed with the die steel (Not good for die life). The resurfaced areas will build-up again quicker and the process will be repeated until the die is removed from service. The coins produced will show doubling in the reworked areas. The setup man can repair these areas in the machine and be back in operation within an hour, thus, saving days of setup time. “

[diamond]

The front of the face is a very common area for machine doubling to appear on Washington quarters. It often affects just a small portion of the entire profile. Lips and chin are common. Other times it'll be just the forehead. Sometimes it'll be the underside of the throat and the underside of the nose. Again, the hows and whys of such specifity are sometimes hard to fathom.

[atrox001]

Bill…here are some photos comparing the lips and chin of MDD and DDO…these photos are from 66 SMS Kennedy half dollars. Note there is a little bit of MDD on the upper part of the lower lip in the DDO photo.

Larry Nienaber

[billscoins]

Larry, I think this should start a new thread with your post as the starting one?

Bill…here are some photos comparing the lips and chin of MDD and DDO…these photos are from 66 SMS Kennedy half dollars. Note there is a little bit of MDD on the upper part of the lower lip in the DDO photo.

Larry Nienaber

LARRY, thank you, these help. But I just went back to my coins and now have more questions. I have a 66 half with want I Thought was MDD but I see a picture of it in the CPG 3rd edition listed as URS-6 pg259. Plus it looks like your MDD coin. The doubling on GOD is exactly the same, however the profile on mine looks deeper.( On a closer look at mine and the picture in CPG some more- I now see a difference in the way the doubling lies on the surface.) Sorry about the pictures. What do you think of this coin? MDD on the profile-and IGWT.
Thanks, Bill

[billscoins]

Hi everyone,. These coins I find very interesting. The doubling on the lips on these 2 coins (1994d Quarters)........ Machine doubling? Yes, I think this is a form of Machine Doubling but here is the important point (to Me), I believe this date may lead us to the markers which may explain how this form of MDD is formed.
I have gone back to the coins I found these in and have found coins in varying states of development of this MDD. Some interesting characteristics are beginning to show up. I am now in the process of collecting a sample group in order to support a few hypotheses I am developing. Any thoughts you may have would be greatly appreciated as we explore this “mystery”.
P.S. I have found 2 coins from the Philadelphia mint, (1994p Quarters)........ which show the same characteristics.

[diamond]

Machine doubling can be variable. There are two major types -- "push doubling" and "slide doubling". Push doubling entails a die that bounces off the coin and lands again lightly in a slightly different position. Slide doubling entails a die that slides laterally immediately after impact. It therefore drags itself through the design, smearing it. You can also have as many as four bounces, leaving four impressions.

[billscoins]

Thanks Mike,
The coins I am looking at are showing characteristics common to both mints. This is telling me that the die setups in both mints had the same contributing factors, which caused the machine doubling on the profile. By studying the progressing markers on the coins and understanding the manufacturing process, we should be able to isolate the factors which produced the profile doubling and… discover what changed so that the doubling was limited only to the lips.
I wonder if anyone has seen a quarter die for 1994 in operation in the mint, and/or would know any of the following:
1. Were the blanks punched out with the rims and edge reeding done together at the same time? (The coins embossed in the next operation with a plain collar.)
2. Or was the Blank (without rims) feed in from a hopper and the embossing of the coin done at the same time as the collar did the edge reeding?
3. Or ?
Thanks, Bill