What is a doubled die?

[wavysteps]

What is the definition of a doubled die?

If you give an answer, please take into consideration both processes of hubbing, multi and single squeeze hubbing.

BJ Neff

[atrox001]

BJ...that is an excellent question for this forum. I would also like to ask...What is a minor doubled die?

Larry Nienaber

[ROB EZERMAN]

WHAT IS A DOUBLED DIE

"Any circimstance through which some or all of a coin's devices receives a second or multiple images except MDD. Images may or may not overlap. Includes doubling of the master die, working hub and/or working die when multiple hubbings create additional images through mis-alignment, changes in size from improper heat treatments or use of different 'hubers'; or, when single hubbings create additional images through rocking or other instability of 'hubber'-'hubbee' relationship such that two or more different positions of either occur during the hubbing."

Being a DD amateur, this very humble effort summarizes what I've learned (largely from ES) over the past year or so.

Now, somebody please define MDD, LOL! Rob Ezerman

[wavysteps]

That is fairly simple. Machine doubling can be defined as all forms of doubling that happen after the last striking of a coin (this takes into consideration that proof coins are struck twice).

I like your definition of a doubled die.

BJ Neff

[wavysteps]

Larry - A little food for thought. Any die that had multiple hubbings is a doubled die. It is all dependent on the degree of offset between the first to the last hubbing that determines if we see it or not.

BJ Neff

[ROB EZERMAN]

BJ...that is an excellent question for this forum. I would also like to ask...What is a minor doubled die?

Larry Nienaber

Larry, with all humility since DD's are not my area of expertise (if I can make any claim to "expertise", LOL), I'd like to propose a drastically revised approach to that used by Wiles and Wexler/Allen.

My premise is the majority of still-listed separate Ike 1971-S DD's (and some others) are simply minor variations of upline doubling, mostly doubled Master Dies (which were hubbed 6-10 times, no wonder there is so much doubling).

I suspect the personalities involved, turf protection and competing systems of Ike DD cataloging has created a distinct bias toward recognizing minor DD differences as attributable.

I prefer to be biased in the opposite direction where the focus is on commonality rather than minor differences created by many factors including superimposed minor doubling from working hub and workind die doubling and from superimposed MDD, as well as the changes in the forerunner doubling pattern due to advancing working-die state.

Toward this end I have proposed for consideration a two tiered Ike DD catalog, "Strong" and "Minor". "Strong" DD's are readily identifiable with a 10X loupe in the hands of an intermediate die student. "Minor" DD's are all others and include all the older die-state or otherwise difficult to attribute, any for which a microscope required, those DD's primarily of research interest, and any DD nominated for "Strong".

Here I'd like to mention that the die polish lines used to separate out otherwise quite similar SB Ikes (Silver Business strike Ikes) looks to be flawed as we are developing evidence that the SB Ike dies were re-polished and re-frosted several times during their life spans. Thus the search will be on for other markers such as the wonderfully "Strange Markers" found on all 1972 CB Ikes (CuNi-clad Business strike Ikes) (except in VLDS where even these strong features begin to get washed out).

As a relative new-comer to DD's and errors, I am impressed how difficult it is for all but the truly obsessed to get a handle on Ike DD's. Certainly the TPG's have basically given up or simply parrot whatever Wexler/Allen or Wiles attributes. Wouldn't it be wonderful to give collectors and TPG's alike a more consistent and approachable DD catalog?

As you all will notice shortly, the Ike Group will shortly assume command of attribution of all Ike varieties and interesting die-state Ikes (including introducing a new catalog system which is intuitive and descriptive, as in CB and SB): in a year or so, unless someone else clears up the mess in Ike DD attributions, we will also assume DD attribution responsibility.

Ours will be an internet-based transparent attribution system with copious high-grade photos of the important Ike doubled master dies and how the doubling deteriorates with die-state.

Sorry to prattle on so long! Rob Ezerman

ES - "The 1972 Promoted Compound-Doubled Eisenhower Obverse Master Die" - May/June 2008

[ROB EZERMAN]

IKE GROUP MDD PROJECT

That is fairly simple. Machine doubling can be defined as all forms of doubling that happen after the last striking of a coin (this takes into consideration that proof coins are struck twice).

I like your definition of a doubled die.

BJ Neff

BJ, thanks. From you that means a lot.

FYI, the Ike Group has started an MDD project at the conclusion of which I suspect we will have a better understanding of the many factors contributing to MDD, hopefully a better name and maybe even evidence that it can be an intra-strike process. We have two serious die students, two metallurgical engineers and the rest of the Group working on this project - so far, so good, but this one will take a while.

I hope we can get it done in time for inclusion in our Ike Book as our wonderful "validator", Alan Herbert, will then have to vet the chapter and oh how the sparks will fly, LOL!
Rob

[atrox001]

Toward this end I have proposed for consideration a two tiered Ike DD catalog, "Strong" and "Minor". "Strong" DD's are readily identifiable with a 10X loupe in the hands of an intermediate die student. "Minor" DD's are all others and include all the older die-state or otherwise difficult to attribute, any for which a microscope required, those DD's primarily of research interest, and any DD nominated for "Strong".

Rob…I don’t agree with your proposed two tiered catalog idea…strong and minor. It is obvious, and has been forever, that any die doubling that can be seen with a 10X loupe is significant. What about the medium spreads, or light triple, quadruple, quintuple, or their later die states…strong or minor? I also don’t think you can necessarily refer to later die states of a doubled die as minor…some may be LDS or even VLDS from a strong, medium, or light spread doubled die that markers can identify. What about RPM’s? I don’t think it is possible to come up with a definition for what a minor doubled die is…at least one that will satisfy everyone. I think it would be very interesting however to know what criteria the CONECA, NCADD, or any other attributors use to identify minor.

Larry Nienaber

[ROB EZERMAN]

Minor Doubling?

Larry, your comment poses exactly the challenge the Ike Group faces. And I agree with your last sentence, the main reason we will be undertaking this project.

At this very preliminary stage it may come down to the appearance of the individual coin and the ease with which a non-die-expert can recognize that hub doubling is present and match it using a good set of Internet photos of Ike DD's that begin to separate major from minor.

The goal is to take DD's out of the black attribution boxes and bring average collectors into the game if they so choose.

Ultimately I'd love to do the same thing with grading, that is, offer a transparant account of Ike grading based on in-depth Internet photos that illustrate that Ike grading, especially Ike grading, is a matter of balancing competing factors: Ikes have different designs on different planchet metals struck with different die-steels and with different degrees of planchet brilliance and amount of planchet chatter. Multiple variables but not impossible to break down and explain. The goal is to help teach the willing student to learn Ike grading well enough that he/she has a good idea of whether a given group of Ikes warrant a trip to a TPG and how to spot good buys at shows and shops.

We are all about helping the Ike collector. Our Ike book will be "The Eisenhower Dollar Coin" "Written for collectors by collectors".

Speaking of Ike RPM's. I agree with Wiles that Wexler's '74-S is probably a doubled punch and not an RPM. But if there was ever a "minor" RPM it is the one and only accepted Ike RPM, the 71-S SB Ike! About 100 molecules of 80% silver are involved in the north-west secondary image. Yet it is in the CPG so PCGS recently added it to their Ike Registry Set (yet return 90% of the Ike DD's we've submitted, that are also in the CPG, as "Minor DD").

We can't yet influence how Ike attributors and the TPG's handle Ikes but we sure can do our thing to make the series more sensible and collector friendly.

Rob

[3¢nicker]

"We are all about helping the Ike collector. Our Ike book will be "The Eisenhower Dollar Coin" "Written for collectors by collectors".

i'll have to check that out when available