1916 Lincoln Cent, Date Punctuated

[foxpigsquid]

First time poster. Picked this up (not attributed) at a local show last weekend. While cataloging it for my collection, I noticed the 'punctuated date'. With a little research, I found NGC lists the variety as VP-001 (https://www.ngccoin.com/variety-plus...09-1958/829112) but has minimal additional information. Looking for more details from the experts and/or other examples from this variety since NGC lists the attributed & graded population at 3? Thanks!

cent_1916_lincoln_modified_portrait_no_vdb_wheat_reverse_copper_bronze_alloy_date_punctuated_vp_001_.jpg

[MintErrors]

I'm my opinion, I see that it's a die clash, but it is pretty minor. I am sorta stumped why NGC would bother with such a minor clash, there are much better ones out there.

Low numbers on this coin, to me anyways, means that people wouldn't send them in for an error due to it being kind of minor. It costs a decent amount of cash to get these examined and slabbed. Plus I believe there is probably a very small group that might collect this.

It's a great looking coin, but for the purist collector who wants a high grade coin rather than one with an issue on it, may pass on this, seeing it as tainted.

I don't know if an error collector would be willing to pay a premium for this. One can only subjectively guess what the coin would bring in a grade, and since CONECA forum rules frown on guessing at a grade, one assumes it may be worth a heck of alot as a normal coin than one that has a minor clash.

Another thing to think about is what do the other 3rd party grading services think of this? They can choose to recognize this error or choose not to. That affects the numbers as well.

A single working die can strike close to 1 million cents. There is a good chance that when this clash happened, it may have been during one die stage, either early or mid die stage. That means maybe limited amounts of these were made, but what could the amount be? It could easily be in the thousands to tens of thousands or more. Hard to say how many were made.

Still scratching my head wondering why NGC even recognized it , and why it's listed in VarietyPlus and not "classed" as an error. Most of the varieties are done by human error. If this is a clash, then it's machine related and typically much less chance at direct human error when two dies clash.

[foxpigsquid]

Much appreciated MintErrors - exactly the extra information I was hoping to find.

I'm coming in from the purist collector standpoint. When examining it before purchase, I thought it was a spec of dirt, but liked the overall look regardless. Only when photographing it did I notice the clash. It's not worth the grading & attribution fee (to me anyway) on this particular coin to have it slabbed and add one to the NGC population. As you mention, probably a sentiment shared by many who may also own one.

However, I was hoping to find out what caused the issue - whether it was human or machine-made. Thanks again - always enjoy the extra education.

[occnumis2021]

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how many different forums you post this on?

[foxpigsquid]

occnumis2021, one other. Didn't get much response from the one last week and this community (new to me) seemed like a good fit for the inquiry. Apologies - rookie mistake. Will avoid double posting across forums in the future now that I realize they are visited by the same audience.

[MintErrors]

In my opinion, the clash happened when the obverse and reverse dies struck each other without a planchet (blank) in between the dies. It's difficult to know exactly how this occurred or when in the minting process. It can happen during initial installation of the dies or right after some routine maintenance was done. The mint workers do test strikes after the working dies are set up and then make necessary adjustments.

If the mint works spot the clash, they typically remove it through use of tools which will leave it with scratches sunk onto the working die, which are raised on the coin. This is then known as an abraded die. Over time these scratches may disappear due to the great amount of pressure and slight wear and tear on the working dies.

The first link is a website that catalogs clashes. A quick look offers no results. If you want, you can contact them and they may take your photos and credit you for the documentation. They can't offer you discovery credit, since it has been documented already by NGC.

http://www.maddieclashes.com/

The next website offers a ton of information on error coins. Have a look under the completed entries area.

https://www.error-ref.com/index-of-entries/

[occnumis2021]

occnumis2021, one other. Didn't get much response from the one last week and this community (new to me) seemed like a good fit for the inquiry. Apologies - rookie mistake. Will avoid double posting across forums in the future now that I realize they are visited by the same audience.

for my part, i can't and won't tell you that you can't do that but that is the reason i ask. there are a lot of people with multiple accounts (including myself) but there are also those that don't.

welcome to the forum (i saw your intro thread too but i'll say hi here, hi)

this forum software is really tight when it comes to image uploading, not so much the size reduction, which i support but also in dimensions, so it is best to upload an obv and rev image separately as well as a "pup" image (pick up points, features etc) so they can be enlarged. the image you took above is fantastic quality but can't enlarge it very easily w/o quality degradation.(well done uploading as an displayable image, not just an attachment)

happy hunting

edited to add:

i did look up the info for this one and saw the VP-001 listing but no other info. did a engine search, didn't turn up much)

JUST found this from 2010 - https://forums.collectors.com/discus...unctuated-date

i thought i'd heard of this one before but wasn't sure. the fact there is a 2010 post about it ensures i have but it doesn't seem to get much fanfare?

i don't see any varieties listed in pcgs pops. fwiw

not sure about anacs, icg etc.

[MintErrors]

occnumis2021, one other. Didn't get much response from the one last week and this community (new to me) seemed like a good fit for the inquiry. Apologies - rookie mistake. Will avoid double posting across forums in the future now that I realize they are visited by the same audience.

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In my opinion, and being quite blunt, occnumis2021 just asked a question.

This isn't any sort of finger pointing, so please do not take it that way. I just want to say that there is no need to change your way communication for us.

There is no need to thwart your desires to communicate anywhere.. it's a freedom of speech thing. It's like asking people for a second opinion on anything. The people on this forum and maybe a few others are good people and here, we aim to help people with their coin related questions.

There is no rookie mistake on this. Some times people ask questions to see if they received an answer on another forum , which might help us understand what the coin in question might be. It's all good.

So, please feel free to communicate with the people you want to. I will say that we like it when others research and try to find out information about a coin. If those people are willing to share that information up front, it can reduce the amount of effort it takes to possibly find out the answer rather than people scratching heads, or going down rabbit holes.

If you have any concerns about the forum, please feel free to reach out to Jamez. He is a CONECA staff member who will address any of your concerns.

[foxpigsquid]

It's all good. Appreciate the information I've picked up just in the last few days, not only from this post, but from browsing the forums in general. Been collecting for many years without much regard to varieties or errors - just looking for nice type coins that I find appealing. Going back through my collection, I've been able to fairly easily identify several varieties based on this wealth of 'new' resources I didn't know existed. Thank you to all who contribute.

[occnumis2021]

It's all good. Appreciate the information I've picked up just in the last few days, not only from this post, but from browsing the forums in general. Been collecting for many years without much regard to varieties or errors - just looking for nice type coins that I find appealing. Going back through my collection, I've been able to fairly easily identify several varieties based on this wealth of 'new' resources I didn't know existed. Thank you to all who contribute.

if some of these include classic coinage, please feel free to post, especailly your quality images. i see enough pocket change posts to hold me over for multiple lifetimes.

[foxpigsquid]

occnumis2021, most are classic coinage. Happy to share my findings for confirmation from the experts here. I'll add a new post every so often, so as not to overwhelm the board with my new variety attribution obsession. Just noticed the strawberry leaf on your profile picture - nice choice.

[occnumis2021]

occnumis2021, most are classic coinage. Happy to share my findings for confirmation from the experts here. I'll add a new post every so often, so as not to overwhelm the board with my new variety attribution obsession. Just noticed the strawberry leaf on your profile picture - nice choice.

thanks.

did you know they're also referred to by a lesser known name? (although it may be frowned upon these days in the current political environment probably as such was the chain cent back in it's day)

nice little sister you have in your pic.

are you a copper guy? copper guys are a pretty rare breed. i've noticed this from having worked with several and being somewhat of one myself.

[foxpigsquid]

thanks.

did you know they're also referred to by a lesser known name? (although it may be frowned upon these days in the current political environment probably as such was the chain cent back in it's day)

nice little sister you have in your pic.

are you a copper guy? copper guys are a pretty rare breed. i've noticed this from having worked with several and being somewhat of one myself.

Thanks. I'm a copper guy in as much as it satisfies those categories of US type coinage. Though my definition of type is pretty loose - I think I have 35+ 'type' slots in my virtual album between half & large cents. My previous 7070 just wasn't cutting it. Several remain empty and some, like your profile pic, I'll never own - but I still enjoy seeing the minor design changes progress through the years.

[occnumis2021]

Thanks. I'm a copper guy in as much as it satisfies those categories of US type coinage. Though my definition of type is pretty loose - I think I have 35+ 'type' slots in my virtual album between half & large cents. My previous 7070 just wasn't cutting it. Several remain empty and some, like your profile pic, I'll never own - but I still enjoy seeing the minor design changes progress through the years.

do you read any material surrounding the dates/events for design changes? it is probably equally as important to my interest in numismatics being the coins are metallic footsteps to our (the worlds) history.

there is a pretty decent (still?) transcription effort for converting antiquated mint documents in their various forms into digital searchable content. i think most or all are being stored at the NNP. (perhaps other numismatic venues as well?)

i did a big handful myself (working with r. burdette) and they contain quite a eclectic wealth of knowledge.

the NNP is an overwhelmingly large accumulation of numis knowledge. fwiw (not the only site for this either)

[foxpigsquid]

do you read any material surrounding the dates/events for design changes? it is probably equally as important to my interest in numismatics being the coins are metallic footsteps to our (the worlds) history.

there is a pretty decent (still?) transcription effort for converting antiquated mint documents in their various forms into digital searchable content. i think most or all are being stored at the NNP. (perhaps other numismatic venues as well?)

i did a big handful myself (working with r. burdette) and they contain quite a eclectic wealth of knowledge.

the NNP is an overwhelmingly large accumulation of numis knowledge. fwiw (not the only site for this either)

Yes, I also find the history fascinating. The NNP is a vast resource and 'overwhelming large' sums it up well. There's so much content, it's hard to digest sometimes, but I always seem to stumble across something new and wonderful. Much appreciation to the folks that keep that history alive - and accessible to all. Thanks for your contributions!