1878-S Trade Dollar, DDR FS-801

[foxpigsquid]

Have had this trade dollar for years (PCGS slabbed but not variety attributed) and just realized it's likely a DDR FS-801 based on comparison to NGC's VarietyPlus images. PCGS also lists additional FS-801 sub-varieties (C-18.1, C-18.2, C-18.2). But based on C-18.1 being a clash, I'm assuming 18.2 and 18.3 are also clashes? I see no evidence of clashing on my example, just curious about the sub-types as I couldn't find any additional examples online.

[occnumis2021]

nice trade.

for sure the 801.

where do you see the .2 and .3 ? i couldn't find them.

i do see the box around the motto clashed below the eagle beak and between the wing.

just for convenience - pop - 801 - 18.1 - 18.2 --- 802

image courtesy of coinfacts.

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[foxpigsquid]

The CoinFacts site lists the additional sub-varieties, all of which have active links, but neither the 18.2 or 18.3 pages have images, additional info or show in the pop report. Given the C-18.1 is currently a 1 of 1, I'm probably deep in the weeds of varieties here trying to track down info on the .2 and .3 - of which my example undoubtedly is not

[occnumis2021]

ok. thanks

i've been diggin a bit. couldn't find any trade dollar pcgs sets with the 18.1/2/3 listed (which is odd) but then tapped a resource i know there to be many experts in many fields. found this thread. irremember it loosely.

https://forums.collectors.com/discus...mment_13159591

you'll note the date and the person writing is an expert both in efforts and results in numismatics but especailly all things usa silver dollars!

ok, i went much further down the rabbit hole (rarely go this deep these days) and found what are listed as 18.2 (8 listed) and 18.3 (10 listed) - i won't explain where i found them unless you're a vam professional.

18.2 die chip outside top left ring (viewer's right wing) - (this listing in lowball census, so must be attributable down into lowest grades) (i noted various degrees of the die chip, so stages exist)

18.3 - (this listing in lowball census, so must be attributable down into lowest grades) - Heritage- (i see no clash or chip on the 18.3 listings but i dont' know if this means this is pre-clash/chip or listed for some other feature i didn't notice)

edited to add: you will see in the image in a previous post above, that coin has both clash and chip although the chip is the much smaller version i've seen.

[foxpigsquid]

ok. thanks

i've been diggin a bit. couldn't find any trade dollar pcgs sets with the 18.1/2/3 listed (which is odd) but then tapped a resource i know there to be many experts in many fields. found this thread. irremember it loosely.

https://forums.collectors.com/discus...mment_13159591

you'll note the date and the person writing is an expert both in efforts and results in numismatics but especailly all things usa silver dollars!

ok, i went much further down the rabbit hole (rarely go this deep these days) and found what are listed as 18.2 (8 listed) and 18.3 (10 listed) - i won't explain where i found them unless you're a vam professional.

18.2 die chip outside top left ring (viewer's right wing) - (this listing in lowball census, so must be attributable down into lowest grades) (i noted various degrees of the die chip, so stages exist)

18.3 - (this listing in lowball census, so must be attributable down into lowest grades) - Heritage- (i see no clash or chip on the 18.3 listings but i dont' know if this means this is pre-clash/chip or listed for some other feature i didn't notice)

edited to add: you will see in the image in a previous post above, that coin has both clash and chip although the chip is the much smaller version i've seen.

Amazing find with that thread - thank you! That lead me to John's book, the last 5 pages of which contain detailed images of 18.1, 18.2 & 18.3. I'll post the link rather than try to copy all the info:

The United States Trade Dollar Challenge 50 Set, http://registry.ssdcvams.com/Trade/TradeChallenge50.pdf

Adjusting the contrast of my original image, I can see some minor clashing that aligns with some but not all of the areas he highlights for each of the sub types.

Might need to re-image it and try to play with the lighting to see if anything more pops out. But maybe if it's not obvious, it's not worthy of one of the C types.

[occnumis2021]

i'm NOT up for chasing this for my part, else i'd just contact john directly, so i will just add an observation after doing quite a few die studies on my own (not of these .1, .2. 3) and reading MANY other people's but keep in the back of your mind, if you are going for these and/or just trying to get a proper attribution with the most current info i'll say this:

going by the .1, .2 and .3 order, with .1 being heavily clashed, no wing chip, .2 being less clashed due to die abrading (with biggest wing chip but there being a .2 early (or late .1) smaller chip, and .3 having the least clashing and "no" wing chip.

the chip doesn't just go away on it's own. the mint was able and did re-hubbings, various die "fixes", which may translate to working dies, master dies and so on.

so w/o more conversation with someone that knows these, i don't accept the .3 as having no chip IF, these are being presented in not only sequential order of die events but also numerically designated as the order of die events.

edited to add: if the mint tried and was able to abrade a die chip of that magnitude out of a die, i'm confident we'd see the field and wing show obvious signs of this, due to how deep and long the later state of the chip is.

and as a side-note, w/o having done more of my own research by looking at more of these, i'm not sure i agree with the clashing on the examples provided as being the same working die? the lesser remaining clashing, imo, from a loose observation doesn't appear to match the heavily clashed episode. but i'm not 100% on this point. something just doesn't seem to match, to my eyes.

[foxpigsquid]

Appreciate all your help - I've learned a lot. May try to contact him and others on the other forum. The trade dollar variety expertise flowing in that post was most impressive.

I'm happy to have found the previously unknown (to me) DDR. The subtle sub-type would just be a neat story to go along with it.

[MintErrors]

I found a few references. Maybe a google search will reveal more info.

Bowers, Q. David. Silver Dollars and Trade Dollars of the United States: A Complete Encyclo-
pedia, Volume I. Bowers & Merena Galleries, Wolfeboro, NH, 1993.

Breen, Walter. Walter Breen’s Complete Encyclopedia of U.S. And Colonial Coins. Doubleday,
New York, 1987.

Gullberg, Colin James . Chopmarked Coins: A History; The Silver Coins Used in China, 1600-
1935, iAsure Group JEAN Publications, 2014.

Rose, F.M. Chopmarks. Numismatic International Incorporated, 1987.

White, JD. Chopmarked Coins: Worthless or Historically Significant?

Happy Hunting

[occnumis2021]

I found a few references. Maybe a google search will reveal more info.

Bowers, Q. David. Silver Dollars and Trade Dollars of the United States: A Complete Encyclo-
pedia, Volume I. Bowers & Merena Galleries, Wolfeboro, NH, 1993.

Breen, Walter. Walter Breen’s Complete Encyclopedia of U.S. And Colonial Coins. Doubleday,
New York, 1987.

Gullberg, Colin James . Chopmarked Coins: A History; The Silver Coins Used in China, 1600-
1935, iAsure Group JEAN Publications, 2014.

Rose, F.M. Chopmarks. Numismatic International Incorporated, 1987.

White, JD. Chopmarked Coins: Worthless or Historically Significant?

Happy Hunting

nice. i bet some of those are on NNP? (or similiar)

[foxpigsquid]

Thank you for the additional references. I have Breen's encyclopedia - which presents a wonderful history of the trade dollar but little variety information, other than the existence of. Did find a few of the ones listed on the Internet Archive, along with a video presentation from the Liberty Seated Collectors Club on trade dollars from 2019. The 1878-S DDR is listed on their 'Overrated Trade Dollars' slide

Breen, Walter. Walter Breen’s Complete Encyclopedia of U.S. And Colonial Coins. Doubleday,
New York, 1987.
https://archive.org/details/walterbr...ge/n7/mode/2up

Bowers, Q. David. Silver Dollars and Trade Dollars of the United States: A Complete Encyclo-
pedia, Volume I. Bowers & Merena Galleries, Wolfeboro, NH, 1993.
https://archive.org/details/v1silver.../1038/mode/2up

LSCC Trade Dollars presentation
https://archive.org/details/WHIT19012Trade