1897(P) Morgan - Can't nail down VAM

[No_Ragrets]

Hello everyone! I thought I would share this here because, for as much as I enjoy figuring out VAM's (except for those 1921's) this one has me stumped. And I mean stumped! I'm torn between a VAM-8 or a VAM-14 (proof coin). To be frank, I'm leaning towards the VAM-14 because I'm seeing more similarities there than I am on the VAM-8. I've got a very good scope (ELIKLIV) and can get right up in those details without losing clarity, and I am really stuck on confidently identifying this particular VAM.

I would be absolutely ecstatic if the consensus here says this is actually a proof Morgan, but I really don't think the odds are in my favor on it. Overall mintage of 731 coins, I'm not overly confident that I actually was able to get my hands on one. But... a man can have hopes and dreams, right??

Also, because I've run into issues with posting my microscope pictures here already, I've created an Imgur link that you can view my photos on. I probably should have used the higher resolution (52MP) pictures but I was taking lower resolution photos (13MP) before I realized I can't upload any of them here. Maybe I will take the better quality images tomorrow and create a new link to view them, but until then, here is my 1897 Morgan. Please click the link below to view the pictures.

https://imgur.com/a/v8ACNFf

[No_Ragrets]

For the life of me, I can't figure out this coin's VAM and that bothers me! I've spent far more time on this one than any other of my Morgan's and am still left wanting information. I do try my best to identify varieties on my own, but this site was recommended to me via Cointalk regarding a different coin (which is how I learned about the file size restrictions on uploads here) and that particular coin is still in limbo as to proof vs business, but I think this one takes precedence.

I'm trying to fill out a (3) Whitman Morgan album collection from 1960 that was given to me when I started collecting Morgan dollars about a year ago. I'm about 50% done, with some semi-key dates already filled. One is a GSA '85-CC Unc, another ('83-CC) I sent in to PCGS for grading but came back AU-58 (was hoping for far better) but the remainder of my set is raw coins. That poses enough of a dilemma, as the majority of great coins get sent in for grading nowadays, which leaves slim pickings for raw-coin selection.

Anyways, please let me know your thoughts as to this specific coin. I've hit an impasse that I seemingly can not figure out. Thank you!

[occnumis2021]

i only read part of the above 2 posts. just wanted to share that size isn't necessary for quality images, just experience/protocols.

171kb - now when enlarged, it does pixelate so if i increased it's quality to around 500kb-800kb (less than 1 mb) it would be much better but nowhere near the size you are talking. that size is more like a RAW image or PNG or something. (this is a morgan but not a morgan)

01-o-v60..JPG
727kb - higher quality ( i reduced the original image to this size from several MB) (this can be enlarged a bit more than the image above but still is very manageable size.

asdfasdf.jpg

29kb

DSC_5265a.jpg

48kb
DSC_4877aa.jpg


drop your images into MS Paint or the like, reduce resolution to like 1200x1200 or 1000x1000, should get the size well under 1mb per image. i've done either 5 or 6 figures worth of images this way.

sorry to clog up your thread with my pics but as they say, "a picture is worth a 1000 words."

[occnumis2021]

336kb took only 30 seconds. (1000x500)

your original size was like 4500x?

asdfasd.jpg

[occnumis2021]

the image above (yours) cannot be V14 because your 1 is over a dentil whereas V14 is over a gap.

[occnumis2021]

really you want about 6 image for vamming. full obv, rev, date, mm (if one is there), and a couple/few cracks/breaks and/or key features that you can find.

i don't see any full obv/rev pics on your imgur links but you can check vam 1C, the date matches but i can't check the cracks/breaks.

1B and 10 seem to be a date match as well.

[No_Ragrets]

the image above (yours) cannot be V14 because your 1 is over a dentil whereas V14 is over a gap.

I completely understand that, but if you look at each of the VAM markers in relation to the "1" edge line, this doesn't exactly align with either of them. But the "1" is still doubled, there is no visible doubling on the L1, 2, or 3 stars, there is slight indications of wear with minor showings of polishing lines and other die markers at the suspected points, but I am still seriously doubtful that I actually have a proof. It would be ridiculous to think this was a proof coin without some kind of in-hand examination / confirmation but I'd rather not waste my money just to get my coin back in a slab that I don't want it in.

I do see some minor doubling on the arrow shafts (more towards the point than the shaft), but I see no doubling on the cap. I'm really stuck on this one. I won't easily give up on figuring it out, but I also won't make an assumption and plop it away in my book forever until I'm confident it's been figured out. I really do appreciate everyone's help. I know I'm just a "beginner" but I am very good at following directions, locating differences (varieties) and finding solutions. I'm an electrician, and that's half of my job! LOL

Thanks for the help!

[No_Ragrets]

really you want about 6 image for vamming. full obv, rev, date, mm (if one is there), and a couple/few cracks/breaks and/or key features that you can find.

i don't see any full obv/rev pics on your imgur links but you can check vam 1C, the date matches but i can't check the cracks/breaks.

1B and 10 seem to be a date match as well.

I was more concerned today with logging into this site and having another successful post, to be honest. I'm brand new here still, so I'm still learning the process of posting and whatnot. I'll definitely take some better pictures but , to be clear, I'm terrible at coin photography. I bought a great scope for getting the details but when it comes to whole-coin photography, I'm awful at it. I recently discovered that sunlight is my friend when taking pictures but that won't have any benefit to these pictures as I am zooming in so far that it's insignificant. That, and I'm not dragging my setup to the front of my house just for some sunlight.

I will run through the different VAM's again in the morning, and maybe this time I'll be able to land on one specific VAM to finally label this one and slap it into my album. This site is awesome though, and I'm glad I've found it! Thanks again, and I hope you all have a nice evening!

[occnumis2021]

I was more concerned today with logging into this site and having another successful post, to be honest. I'm brand new here still, so I'm still learning the process of posting and whatnot. I'll definitely take some better pictures but , to be clear, I'm terrible at coin photography. I bought a great scope for getting the details but when it comes to whole-coin photography, I'm awful at it. I recently discovered that sunlight is my friend when taking pictures but that won't have any benefit to these pictures as I am zooming in so far that it's insignificant. That, and I'm not dragging my setup to the front of my house just for some sunlight.

I will run through the different VAM's again in the morning, and maybe this time I'll be able to land on one specific VAM to finally label this one and slap it into my album. This site is awesome though, and I'm glad I've found it! Thanks again, and I hope you all have a nice evening!

your image quality is fine. practice editing like i showed above, then you can upload them here.

one step at a time.

the 1897p is a good year to start on since there are so few and the date position REALLY narrows it down to only a few possibilities.(maybe now n then you run into a die 1 die 2 etc situation but there will be notations about such on the individual vam pages.

[No_Ragrets]

i don't see any full obv/rev pics on your imgur links but you can check vam 1C, the date matches but i can't check the cracks/breaks.

1B and 10 seem to be a date match as well.

I recently added the full obverse and reverse photos onto that Imgur link. I've started playing around with the Paint app but I don't have any pictures of the coin zoomed out far enough to be able to crop it down to size. The images (including the full coin shots) are all taken on my scope for the time being. I just figured out how to get to these forums on my phone, so I'll see what I can do to maybe transfer some pictures to my phone to see if I can make them sized correctly.

If nothing else, I can post pictures from my camera roll but they won't be nearly as clear lol! Thanks for the help so far, and I'll see if I can manage to get correctly-sized pictures for uploading soon!

[occnumis2021]

asdfasdf.jpg
fasdfasfd.jpg

[No_Ragrets]

asdfasdf.jpg
fasdfasfd.jpg

I'm going to have to get my wife to show me how to decrease the file size or something. I tried to reduce the pixels but doing that just made for a smaller and smaller viewing window. I added a video of the coin onto that Imgur link but I lost the sunlight for the day, so I took the video at the dining room table. The lights you can see go by in the fields are the bulbs from the light fixture about 3' away, and when you see the coin turn an orange color, that's my shirt reflecting in the coin from about 18" away or so. The fields are very mirrorlike and are highly reflective, which was what attracted my attention when I purchased the coin!

I'm still stumped on the VAM, but I'll keep at it until it drives me crazy again and I put it down for the night! Thank you again for your help!

[No_Ragrets]

20241125_145424.jpg 20241125_145632.jpg

[No_Ragrets]

I was able to grab these pictures in the weaning hours of sunlight today. I've got a small job tomorrow but hopefully I'll be able to look more into compressing my existing pictures

[No_Ragrets]

So I think I've come to the conclusion, with the help of some folk over at Cointalk, that this particular coin seems to be an unlisted / unidentified VAM. That makes a lot of sense to me, because I'm usually pretty decent at figuring out Morgan VAM's (even if I'm a bit on the slower side of it) and I am still utterly stumped as to this one even after your help and with the assistance of the Cointalk members. This conclusion was drawn once it was pointed out that the die study is still "in progress" so this could very easily be one of those coins where the particular VAM has yet to be listed. Unfortunately, I suppose I'm going to have to just put this coin into my album and forget about the VAM for a little while (maybe a long while) and be happy with that. Thanks for all of your help and your time, and I'll catch ya on the next topic!