Doubled die correct?

[Rich Menchio]

Hello
my name is Rich and I’m a new member and I would like to confirm this is a doubled die.

thank you

[ryanrich]

Hello, welcome! I'm also a new member myself! Just curious what year and mint is this coin? Is there a specific doubled die on Variety Vista or here on CONECA you think it's a match to? Would love to know more!

http://www.varietyvista.com/01b%20LC%20Doubled%20Dies%20Vol%202/DDR%20listing.htm

[Rich Menchio]

Hello Ryanrich
It is a 2001 D and if I’m not mistaken I don’t believe it is on Variety Vista and I have several more error coins I will be posting that are not on there as well.

Rich

[MintErrors]

In my opinion, I believe it to be a form of worthless doubling called push doubling.
Here is a link which has photos and more information.

https://www.error-ref.com/push-doubling/

[Rich Menchio]

Hello Gary
This is were I find so many discrepancies in this area. I can find the same kind of illustrations in Error books and Errorscope that say it is a true doubling.
if it’s this difficult to agree on what is a doubled due wouldn’t it be easier for everyone to just call it a doubling and let the people who want to collect them decide what they find valuable because as I’m sure you are well aware some true doubling is so minute and so difficult to see that it shouldn’t hold any real significant value and on the other hand some Machine doubling and such is so much more apparent and more pleasing to the eye that it should hold more value.
I’m not sure who decides what is valuable and what is not but this is the biggest issue in collecting coins.
curious on your opinion.

thank you
Rich

[MintErrors]

In my opinion, there are hundreds if not thousands of worthless machine damage to one doubled die. For me, since the machine damage is so plentiful, they are basically worth face value.

There are some folks that try to spin some of the worthless doubling up to inexperienced collectors and that just wrong. But education is key and the knowledge of how to tell the difference between machine damage and a DDO/DDR is vital.

Granted, some of the doubled dies can be minor, but it depends on the year, mintmark and denomination. Many doubled die prices can be found on either
PCGS or NGC website. Even some other varieties like re-punched mint marks are taking off, especia,lying if they have a FS number attached to them.

[Rich Menchio]

Why does Variety Vista show doubled dies that a lot of people would say they are machine doubling.
For example my 2019D and 2021D I believe are die doubling but you would call them machine doubling and Variety Vista shows just about the same thing on their 2019 & 2021 no mint.
It is very confusing even in my Error book it shows the same imaging as doubled die but lot’s of people say machine doubling.
i will be posting more images in the coming days.

[MintErrors]

Why does Variety Vista show doubled dies that a lot of people would say they are machine doubling.
For example my 2019D and 2021D I believe are die doubling but you would call them machine doubling and Variety Vista shows just about the same thing on their 2019 & 2021 no mint.
It is very confusing even in my Error book it shows the same imaging as doubled die but lot’s of people say machine doubling.
i will be posting more images in the coming days.

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I personally can't answer what something looks like from another's opinion or view. Its simply not my view and we cannot comprerehend the same exact thing from the data. Typically the coin owner is able to get more data, where as the one observing pictures from a different environment may not see the exact same issue. So, to me, answering as a third party between a person and what they personally see on a website may be biased and judgement is given. I may, and probably don't see it exactly the same way.

It is difficult for some to see the differences between mechanical damage and a true doubled die.

In my opinion, it's all about knowing the process of how each happen, and it makes it easier - for me at least to logically think the process out and attribute my own coins.

I have written a few articles on my website about doubled dies. I have explained the process to hundreds of people on here as well. I may try to give a short version here but,it depends on time. I am currently on travel and I could be called away at any time

Here is a short bulletized format.

• Some time after 1995, The US Mint changes the way working dies are made. No longer do they utilize multiple impressions to create a working die. They now do a single squeeze technique that uses a lot higher pressure over older methods.
• Prior to 1996, a working die which is made from a steel rod would be put into a hubbing press. This press would have a blank working die at the bottom. They would attempt to squeeze the image of the coin onto the working die in one shot. They would make the impression but then would have to remove the working die to inspect the transfer attempt. If they decide that working die needed more details, they would try to realign that die under the hubbing press and try again.
• If the alignment was slightly off and the impressions were separated enough, a doubled die was born.
• One has to note that these impressions on the working die are done at the same relative pressure. The impressions are typically sunk into the working die. Then, when the working dies squeeze a blank planchet into a coin, what is sunk into the working die will be raised o to the coin.
• The doubled die shows on certain portions of the coin.
• Those doubled areas are struck into steel and they will not move.
• The areas of doubling should look pretty close to the same height.
• Depending on how far off the doubling is, determines whether you see just a sliver of doubling or, a significant amount of doubling.
• For very minor doubling one may see only split serifs, often called notching.
• The more the doubling is off, one may see a cookie cutter style line that seperates one impression over the other.
• The devices (numbers, letters, buildings, animals, etc.) that are affected by the doubling should travel in the same direction.
• The doubling on those devices should be thicker.
• The doubling should be at the same height.

One can look at extreme examples of doubled dies on Lincoln cents prior to 1996. I suggest paying attention to the height of each of those impressions. Look at the 1955, 1958, 1969S ,1972 DDO-001 and DDO-002 doubles dies in this case.

Also, note the direction in which the doubling occurs.

Although there are many types of doubled dies in reference to class, it important to note where the doubling occurs, whether to the east, west, north or south for example, it should occur in that direction on all affected areas.

That is about as basic as I can get on how a doubled die, on coin from the USA prior to 1996 should look like, regardless of the denomination.

I have to go. I have to update people on what has transpired to a family member over the last 8 hours or so.

[MintErrors]

Also, trust your references. Look at the way each doubling occurs on those known, good examples and see if it matches up exactly to yours. Look for the pick up ponts / additional makers that help solidify the attribution like s ratches, gouges or other issues on those documented examples. If something has not been found for years or decades later, it may be something else...

Remember doubled dies are impressed into steel. Those areas of doubling don't move although the appearance might be affected as the working die gets worn over time. Those markers/PUPs may become weak or disappear over time.

Feel free to add as many photos as you wish, but, I am pretty confident to what I see. Others may chime in and offer their opinions. We all are human and make mistakes occasionally so some one's opinion may differ from mine.

[Rich Menchio]

Thank you for the informative answer. Hopefully all the books and websites can all get on the same page in this area of coin collecting since they are the 2 main sources people go to for their knowledge.

Thank you again
rich

[Rich Menchio]

So this book says this is a doubled dies and it looks exactly the same as mine so this is were I’m getting really confused.

[MintErrors]

Whoa..... hang on.the photo you are showing above is a dime. Your coin in hand is a cent.

Plus, the dime was struck when they performed multiple squeezes to get all the features visible on the coin. The cent is done in the single squeeze era...

In my opinion, it's never a good idea to cross these lines trying to compare one doubled die of one denomination to another denomination. They are not even the same type coin. Doing that may cloud the educational value. I recommend using the references, but... match up the photos to the same year, mintmark and denomination.

Every doubled die that is made is almost unique. They don't look the same and can show doubling in different areas.

Again, I think your cent suffers from push doubling, especially around Lincolns face. It is flatter, does not appear close to the same height and does not show that cookie cutter style line.

On the other hand that dime does show the above mentioned conditions.

[Rich Menchio]

Hello Gary
Is there a error book you can recommend that shows coins from around 1930-40’s to 2024?

Thank you
Rich

[MintErrors]

Since you did not mention any denomination(s) I will have to assume all.

What about the latest version of the Cherry Pickers guides ?
But those are typically varieties like:
Doubled dies
Repunched mint marks
Over mint marks
Repunched dates
Overdates

People lump errors and varieties into one pile, so if you are talking errors, there are several error books on ebay/amazon. I typically use error-ref.com as my reference. Plenty of well documented errors. The "index completed entries" is my favorite area.

In my opinion, If your looking for a book that offers an educational path, it's probably an older book called

The Error encyclopedia by Arnold Margolis. The last version was edited by Fred Weinberg and features a checkerboard dust jacket with a off center Morgan dollar on it. It gives a pretty decent idea of how the mi t was run and eventually with logical thinking, allowing people to debunk those post mint damage errors. The book is uncommon for it to be seen for sale, but copies are out there.

Varieties.... I just stick with conecaonline.info , varietyvista.com , doubleddie.com , coppercoins.com and a several others. Some of the websites do offer documented examples that I consider minor but at least they give people hope when roll searching.

Happy hunting.

[Rich Menchio]

Thank you so much for all your answers and education on this area. I have been using the book Strike it Rich with pocket change by Ken Potter and Dr.Brian Allen. It seems decent and describes all about different strikings for doubling so that helped to clarify some things.

I do have one more question Who decides what is valuable and what isn’t in coin collecting?

Thank you
Rich