Any Ideas? 1904 Indian Cent Reverse Doubling

[ZagNut]

You tell me

[cents1st]

This is not doubling...I have seen many of these Indian Cents of most dates after 1892, probably all dates 1892-1909, circ's not proofs. I believe these deep hub impressions on obv & rev dies, made by US Mint Engraver Chas. Barber are available on all years he held the position as Engraver. These are available in roll quantities, with different depths of "shoulders".

[rascal]

This is not doubling...I have seen many of these Indian Cents of most dates after 1892, probably all dates 1892-1909, circ's not proofs. I believe these deep hub impressions on obv & rev dies, made by US Mint Engraver Chas. Barber are available on all years he held the position as Engraver. These are available in roll quantities, with different depths of "shoulders".

You are correct this is not the kind of doubling that brings a premium over the regular value. What a lot of collectors can never understand or be told is that there is numerous things on coins that looks a little similar to a real doubled die , such as mechanical doubling and die detoration.

on this indian cent this is called longraces doubling and is only a normal cent. I hope this helps some folks learn a few things. It is really simple to tell the difference between the worthless forms of what looks like doubling and a real doubled die after studying coins for a few months.

[rascal]

You tell me

ZagNut like I told you a while back , throw that microscope in the trash and just use nothing higher than a 10x loupe and you will enjoy collecting error coins much more. That microscope is just causing you problems.

[Merlin8971]

My question would be....If the grading companies use microscopes to grade coins....why would you tell Zagnut to "throw his microscope in the trash?" Microscopes ARE NOT CHEAP......unless you buy a 60X hand held microscope from Hong Kong.

A number of errors REQUIRE a microscope to identify them.

A better suggestion might be to tutor Zagnut on the use of the microscope.

[cents1st]

I believe microscopes are used by the grading companies to authenticate, not grade. Naked-eye is used to grade, with bright light. This is an easy misunderstanding.

[rascal]

My question would be....If the grading companies use microscopes to grade coins....why would you tell Zagnut to "throw his microscope in the trash?" Microscopes ARE NOT CHEAP......unless you buy a 60X hand held microscope from Hong Kong.

A number of errors REQUIRE a microscope to identify them.

A better suggestion might be to tutor Zagnut on the use of the microscope.

Merlin I know that you and zagnut are just now starting to learn about error coins and I'm willing to help you even if not very many more folks are willing to help. To be honest with you I don't know of a error coin that anyone would need a microscope to see it. heck if a error was this small what good would it be. this is why I said throw that darn thing in the trash and learn to do it right.

both of you are putting things on this forum even if they are errors no one could postively authenticate them and even if they could you still would not have anything that would be worth the cost of having the coin slabbed.

and just like the other poster told you a microscope is not used for grading because all of the teeny tiny bag marks would show up. the really deep scratches on coins that are visible with the naked eye are the only ones that takes away from a coins grade.

this is important for you to remember in case you buy some slabbed and graded coins,don't use a magnifying glass or microscope to examine them.I have sold slabbed coins to newbies before on Ebay and received a email soon as they receive the coin saying heck this thing has scratches all over it.all coins will show millions of minute scratches if you enlarge the surface of them with a darn microscope.

now guys stop using them darn microscopes to examine your coins and go find us some good ones to put photos of on here. don't go any higher than a 10X loupe and I gurantee you will soon have better luck because you can go thru a thousand times more coins instead of stopping to spend a hour or more on each one.It's best to just look for the well known error coins and still keep a eye out for the other types of errors.

If you need to know anything just put it on here and ask the good folks on this forum.we will not get bored with you or talk bad to you or at least I won't . I hope the info. I gave you two here does not offend either one of you because I'm just trying to be helpful.

[Merlin8971]

Hello Rascal:

I can think of two coins off the top of my head that require higher manification, the 1980 Lincoln DDO and the 2006 DDO. The 2006 especially needs high magnification to see the split serif of the TY in Liberty.

Many, many coins need proper magnification to distingish between a Doubled Die and a Mechanically Doubled coin. Personally, I have 3X, 5X, 10X, 20X, 40X, 60X, and a microscope. (I mainly use the microscope to take better photos) Many errors I find cannot be distinguished (identified completely) with the naked eye (at least my tired eyes).

BUT, I must admit that the 40X, 60X and microscope actually makes some detail features disappear if magnified too much. So it becomes a matter of experience....which magnification is used.

I recall taking a 1909 VDB to a coin show and had a grader look at it (he looked at it under a microscope) and informed me the coin was a Doubled Die obverse, which I did not see with the naked eye.

Normally, when I go through rolls of coins I use a 10X visor with a LED light attached. I usually take about ten seconds to look at both sides of a coin. I have sort of "trained" myself to have as complete a mental picture of the coin's (say a Lincoln penny) features as possible, that way any deviation from that mental picture would be noticed quickly. I also have somewhat memorized most of the major errors of the types of coins and keep a cheat sheet listing of errors handy, as well as the various books on errors. I find that this method makes errors jump out at me when looking at the coins.

I like error coins. I like the uniqueness of errors. I do like to find the "good ones" but I also like to find the more common ones. An example the die clash errors found on 95 thru 98 Washington quarters that I dubbed the "errant leaf" die clash because the obverse eye indentation looks like a verticle leaf just above the arrow heads on the reverse. A fairly common error but I have kept five or more of each date as I find them. Of course I have found more than 1500 error coins in the past year. Some are cataloged by the experts, some are no where to be found in the error books or site. One coin is a 2008 Hawaii that has three extra sets of "island chains." How the die got gouges in it to cause this is perplexing considering the well struck details of the coin. But, it is really kewl. Ironically, the extra island chains actually are similar to the graphic depiction of tectonic plates moving the Hawaiin islands North and West and the caldera creating the islands making more islands, in a History channel program on tectonic plate movement.

My problem is that some of the coin errors I find are similar to the "high value" errors, but not quite the same. I have even found some rolls that all the coins have errors similar to "high value" published errors. I bought a roll of 1955-S b/unc Lincoln pennies that had up to four different errors. The well known "BIE" error, the Doubled 55 error, the S over S error and Doubling of "In God We Trust." Of the 50 coins, 37 were errors with one or more of these errors. Seven had all four errors.

But really, it does not matter what the error is....IF ONE CANNOT find out the apparent value of the coins. THAT is the hardest part of error coins. NO ONE wants to give their opinion on the value of these errors. Even the books are highly inconsistent about giving values or value ranges.

Seems to me, the only way to find out a value is to have the coin graded by PCGS, NGC, ANA, etc... but (here is the suspicious part) you pay to have the coin graded, say $X and find out the coin is very valuable and the grading company (from what I understand) charges you a substantial premium on top of the grading fee.....BECAUSE YOU COIN IS VALUABLE. Seems to me the grading companies want to get a cut of the value of the coin,,,AND a bigger cut if the coin is truely "rare."

I was told by a dealer in my area that he had a 1800's MS 65 gold coin with a major error on it. He sent it to the most popular grading company and they slabbed it at MS 65 but WOULD NOT grade it on the error (this is his statement) "because they were not familiar with him so they could not multiply the error value (eight times) that much." The dealer said he took the coin to a very high volume dealer to get it graded and the same grading company DID grade the coin with the error and the error value.

Just some of my observations about coin collecting.

P.S. Why does this site kick me out so much?? While writing this reply, I was logged off and had to log back in (after I copied what I wrote) in order to post this.

[rascal]

Merlin you are looking for the wrong types of the 2006 doubled die cents. The only ones I keep are the rare type with the heavy doubling. these are really easy to see and all the letters and date is doubled. there is another one with the doubled ear that is ok. so far I have only found two of the best 2006 doubled die cents. I sold one on ebay for around 135.00 and just got thru finding another one. the buyer of the first one said to be sure to call him if I ever found another one but I hate to part with the last one. just look for the good coins and skip the bad ones and you may do better. well heck just do it the way that you like to do the best.

[Merlin8971]

Rascal;

I am going through a roll of 1968-S BU pennies that so far, all are FS-01-1968S-101 (027.5) and one definitely needs magnification to see those errors. I suspect the whole roll is doubled die obverse. The first ten I have looked at are doubled.

[rascal]

Rascal;

I am going through a roll of 1968-S BU pennies that so far, all are FS-01-1968S-101 (027.5) and one definitely needs magnification to see those errors. I suspect the whole roll is doubled die obverse. The first ten I have looked at are doubled.

Merlin I don't know anything about the 68s doubled dies . I do know what you are saying about the same coins coming from the same roll. if you could find the same box this roll came from the entire box would be like this.I kind of recently found out a certain dated box of the bison nickels that contained the best type of the detached leg coins and a few of the awesome clashed die peeing bison coins in the rolls. this has been confirmed that the same die made both types of these great coins, the die clashes were ground and polished off to creat the ULTRA DET. leg coins. these are only found in the mint issued collector boxes and fro a very few hours in a certain dated box.I have over 400 of the ULTRA det leg coins.

I did the same thing on the 1983 DDR cents and had over 1200 of them from new rolls that came from the same box. this was in late 82 or early 83 ' the rolls were containing on the average of 39 DDR's to the roll. The darn sad part is I didn't know as much back then as I know now and didn't have any internet. I kept them for about three months or maybe longer and decided they were only mechanical doubling and would you know it, I was stupid enought that i took every last one of them and let the bank have them. I never could find one of them back.

[Merlin8971]

Well, I've gotten through 25 for 25 with the 68 S. Then I was on to other things and will get back to it later. The error is in Cherrypickers Guide Volume One page 136. I am real happy finding any number of errors. I think a whole roll is fabulous.

I try to keep anything I find interesting. Once I thow something back into the pool of coins, I know I'll never see it again.

[rascal]

Well, I've gotten through 25 for 25 with the 68 S. Then I was on to other things and will get back to it later. The error is in Cherrypickers Guide Volume One page 136. I am real happy finding any number of errors. I think a whole roll is fabulous.

I try to keep anything I find interesting. Once I thow something back into the pool of coins, I know I'll never see it again.

I know what you are saying about keeping things and I sure learnt this the hard way with the 83 cent DDR's Some folks may think my story is a fib but it's the God's honest truth and I lost out on nearly half a million dollars or maybe more because of my goof up. I saw some of the better grade 83 DDR coins sell on ebay for over 600.00 each.

[ZagNut]

ZagNut like I told you a while back , throw that microscope in the trash and just use nothing higher than a 10x loupe and you will enjoy collecting error coins much more. That microscope is just causing you problems.

I really wish I could afford the right equipment I really need for identifying these coins that I post. I struggle living from week to week and am being treated for kidney disease so the government really doesn't like to give much money to survive. "BUT" I have taken your advice and have been saving up what I can and so far have set aside 290.00, from what I see for good digi scopes, that amount doesn't make much of a dent, if anyone knows something better for a decent price, please let me know, I've checked ebay and last one I got there crashed in a week so I don't trust used/preowned electronics of this type. Thank you all for you advice and help! :O)
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[Merlin8971]

I would suggest that you look on E-Bay for a 40X or 60X portable microscope. They have a strong LED light (the 60X usually comes with a "blacklight" also). These can be purchased for VERY little money (usually .99 cents plus 5.95 shipping). They take about 10 to 15 days to get from Hongkong, but they are very helpful. As I said previously you must keep in mind that some magnified features will be lost in the magnification. I have found the blacklight feature really helps in finding 1996 & 2000 Lincoln pennies with misaligned die clashes under Lincoln's bust.

You really can't go wrong with purchasing these handheld magnifiers, they are cheap and work very well. Then you can use the $284.01 for something else.

I hope your kidney disease is stabilized or cured if possible. Hang in there and be as well as you can.