Nice BIG No Date Jefferson 5c CUD

[koinpro]

Here's a nice big Major Die Break (Cud) covering the date on this Jefferson nickel. It was submitted to me by Brian Higgins of FL in July of 2008.

On this coin I also show the reverse. It show how the area opposing the Cud will not strike up due to a lack of striking pressure caused by the void (on the obverse in this case). Small and shallow cud breaks in the die may not cause this effect to the same degree if at all.

Collectors more often than not refer to a Major Die Break under the slang term "Cud." The term has it roots in the early error-variety hobby when the use of nicknames was more prevalent than today. This is one of the few slang terms that has stuck. No matter what you want to call it, a Cud always involves the breakage of the die that includes a portion of its shank and field and or design areas.

Cuds are often confused with die breaks or even die chips that are found within the interior of the coin design but have no connection to the shank of the die or edge of the coin.

A die break -- no matter how large -- that does not involve the edge of the die is not a cud -- it is simply a die break, which may be defined as a Small Die Break or Large Die Break.

ND5cCudObva-W.jpg

ND5cCudObvR-W.jpg

Here is an actual die with a deep Major Die Break.

BustDollarRoundCudObvCroppedW.jpg
Die from the Ken Potter Collection of broken and defective dies.

[diamond]

Alan Herbert's terminology for die breaks is untenable and I don't use it. Many "major die breaks" are trivial in size and some are no larger than a die chip. So there is nothing that would warrant the non-existent label of "minor die break". A "small die break" is better referred to as a die chip.

One should never incorporate an adjective denoting magnitude into any error term, expecially when there is no relationship between the normally-understood meaning of that adjective and the objective size of the defect.

So I still use the term "cud", although I'm also content to use the alternative moniker "marginal die break". For interior breaks I use the term "die chip" for those that are less than 2 square millimeters in area. I refer to larger voids as interior die breaks.

[koinpro]

Mike,

My take is different than yours. "Major" to me means that it not only involves the face of the die but a "major" area of the edge of the die. I have hundreds of US Mint dies from the 1960s and many were cuds. Even the Base Of Bust Cuds broke down the nose of the die to a significant degree.

Out of all of the dies I own with Cuds -- all involve a "major" area of the nose or shank of the die. As such I see a Cud as a "major event" v.s. a superficial die chip or break that is found in the interior of the die. All of the die breaks and chips in my dies are very shallow.

With that said, there are exceptions to the rule both ways and I'm willing to live with that. For a large die break all you need is a modifier such as "large," "very large," or "massive" with a degree of subjectivity involved.

Mike, with all due respect, I have never heard of the terms "marginal die break" but what my first impression was when you said it was that it was somehow marginal in magnitude, i.e., minor.

With Cud, all you have to say is a "small cud" or small "Major Die Break" (as counter intuitive as it may sound) but in popular usage I will most often describe it as a small cud.

The bottom line is that I see no point in changing terms that area already well understood, just for the sake of change.

If we did that then we should be needle-picking terms such as "Off Center." This is not a "shop term" and it certainly would not be a very workable term in describing a coin that is shaped like a guitar or a motorcycle or the shape of the issuing country. The long accepted term in a stamping operation is Off Location. But I can live with Off Center in spite of its obvious shortcomings.

I know you are unlikely to change your view anymore than I will so I guess it is best we agree to disagree on this one.

BTW, it is good to see you chime in on this topic. It is good for newcomers to see that are different views and then let them choose what they feel works best for them.

[diamond]

The magnitude of a die defect can only be assessed on the coin. A tiny base-of-bust cud is just that -- tiny. A large interior die break is just that -- large. If you're going to describe the magnitude of "major die breaks", then you get into ridiculous situations like declaring some to be "minor major die breaks" and others to be "major major die breaks". It just doesn't work. So for me, a marginal die break will forever be referred to as a cud. As you may have already surmised, "marginal' refers to the fact that part of the die's margin is lost.

As you say, we'll just have to disagree on this. But it does seem that Herbert's idiosyncratic and overly narrow definitions of the terms "die break" and "large die break" have largely disappeared from contemporary usage. Instead, the term "die break" is currently used as a non-specific label that refers to any void in the die face that arises from brittle failure. "Die break" therefore encompasses cuds, retained cuds, rim cuds, die chips, interior die breaks, and retained interior die breaks. That's certainly how I employ the term "die break".

[koinpro]

Fair enough Mike, we can agree to disagree. I can live with that.

Ken

[koinpro]

Instead, the term "die break" is currently used as a non-specific label that refers to any void in the die face that arises from brittle failure.

Not all die breaks are due to "brittle failure." You can have a die careen off of a collar a few times and that alone can be the start of a crack that leads to die failure. This could happen within a few strikes.

I've had dies break after fewer than 200 strikes. On one of my designs I get no more than 2,000 to 3,000 strikes before I break or crack one of both dies. I've gone through four sets of dies for that design alone.

It's all about the relief of the design and how hard you strike the planchet. I prefer to break dies over producing substandard products so I have them crack up the pressure and live with the results.

Of course, once the die has seen a long life, and it's surface has decarbonated, the die is getting brittle and die failure will occur.

[diamond]

True enough. Die breaks (sensu lato) can occur spontaneously or as the result of an impact.

A point I didn't make before is that some of the larger interior die breaks extend rather deeply into the die face. Instead of a shallow flake spalling off you have a deep wedge of metal breaking free. There's a 2007-P dime struck by a shattered obverse die that shows a very tall interior die break in its later stages. Of course, evidence of depth depends on striking pressure. A deep interior die break will still have low relief on a coin if the metal doesn't rise to fill the void completely.

http://editions.amospublishing.com/w...%20die%20break

[koinpro]

Mike, you are 100% correct. These are major varieties.