TPG Standardization? One can hope

[Guest]

Prior to going up to the Richmond coin show and Setting up as a dealer and CONECA state representative, I had a package incoming. This package's issues was nothing short of entertaining, and I decided to share some of that with you all. I won't get into specifics about the package travels itself, my aim is to potentially have people scratch their heads and wonder why TPG's - Third Party Grading services don't attribute the same way.

This last package I sent in had a bunch of Lincoln Cent notched doubled dies. I took the time to write every one down on the submission sheet, instead of lumping them down one line and get what I expected back - a jumbled mess.

I self attributed most, but sometimes that simply does not cut it with customers. I want them to feel comfortable at the CONECA table as well at our dealer tables as well. These tables are separated slightly, to give the impression that they are separate entities - which technically they are.

The ANACS box comes to the coin show and I opened it up. I knew some of the results from the email they had sent in advance. Even though I supplied what I thought was sufficient information, they still graded the coins as shown in the photo;




I did a double check of that 1961 Franklin DDO, and in my opinion, its not a minor DDO. I'll take some photos of that one and see what the resident experts say.

But, at least they were recognized as such, slabbed and graded. I'll go back to each line item I had on the paper, and match up the attribution info I put on there. I'll figure out a way to make these provide a little more information for the people who are interested in these type of errors.

[Merlin8971]

Grading Service Companies and such

I have a real problem with Third Party Grading Services. As another person posted recently, I too have submitted a coin for grading and attibution to PCGS and although I specifically told them to grade AND attribute the doubled die, PCGS only graded the coin and DID NOT attribute the coin as a doubled die.....but furthermore I DID NOT recieve the same coin as I submitted. I had pictures to prove it and PCGS ignored my photos and never did offer to do anything.

Another gripe I have is the "value" of the coin determines how much one has to pay PCGS for their slabbing. I have an 1878 Morgan major 7 tail feather over 8 tail feather with five 'bumps" that also has doubling of the right wing feathers. I asked PCGS how they wanted me to submit the coins "value" when that is precisely why I wanted to submit the coin. Under normal conditions the "major" 7 tail feathers over 8 tail feather would have a value of about $250, BUT if the coin is attributed to the Cherrypickers "double wing feathers" variety it may be "valued" up to $9000. As far as I understand, if I submit it with a value of $250 I would NOT get the additional attribution of the "doubled wing feathers", BUT if I give a value of $9000, I would have to pay a very signifantly higher fee to get this attribution associated with the coin. Another problem is, what happens if I submit the coin with a value of $9000 and the coin IS NOT attributed to the "doubled wing feathers," would I get a refund on the value of the coin? IT SEEMS THE GRADING COMPANIES WANT A LARGE PORTION (ON AN APPARENT SLIDING SCALE) OF THE VALUE OF THE COIN JUST TO GET THE POSSIBLE ATTRIBUTION.

Another time I submitted a coin at the "FUN" show in Orlando. The person at PCGS wrote the grading AND attribution of the coin, BUT because the PCGS representative DID NOT charge the proper amount, the coin was graded BUT NOT attributed as it should have been. I was told by PCGS representatives at PCGS that since I did not pay the proper amount (an error of the PCGS representative at the show) I would have to re-submit the coin with the additional amount of money and they would re-slab the coin.

THEN, there are the MANY times I have been told of "large" coin companies submitting huge amounts of coins of one type or another....telling the representatives (example) these 30 coins are "70's," these 20 coins are "69's" and these 25 coins are "68's" and THAT IS EXACTLY HOW THE SLABS COME OUT.

Then we have the "First Strike" "First Day of Release" and other designations that HAVE MISLEADING OR NO ACTUAL MEANING WHATSOEVER in numismatics. I have spoken to the representative supervisors at the US Mint and they state these titles ARE IN FACT MISLEADING AND HAVE NO VALIDITY. YET, the grading companies STILL MISLEAD THE COIN COLLECTORS WITH THESE TITLES implying these coin titles ADD VALUE to the coins, which they do not! WHY EXPERT NUMATISTS do not band together and pressure these grading companies to drop misleading and inappropriate titles is beyond me.

Then there are the actual values given to slabbed coins. Sometimes PCGS/NGC will assign a value to a graded coin, SOMETIMES they do not assign a value AT ALL, or they will post "value not available". WHY THE HELL DO THESE GRADING COMPANIES """NOT""" ASSIGN A VALUE TO EACH AND EVERY COIN THAT IS SLABBED???? EXCUSE ME, BUT THERE IS """NOT""" ONE COIN COLLECTOR OUT THERE THAT IS """NOT""" INTERESTED IN THE FULL AND FAIR VALUE OF EACH AND EVERY COIN.

I submitted another coin to PCGS and it was attributed as "new" error, but they DID NOT assign a value to the coin AND THEN to top it off, they listed the population as (0) zero, EVEN THOUGH THEY HAD CATALOGED MY COIN WITH THIS ERROR. HOW THE HELL CAN THEY LIST A POPULATION OF ZERO (0) WHEN MY COIN HAD BEEN CATALOGED AS AN ERROR??? It should have a population of one (1), at minimum.

THERE IS NOT ONE EXPERT ON THIS SITE THAT WOULD GIVE A $500 COIN TO A STRANGER AT A COIN SHOW FOR FREE JUST BECAUSE THEY SAW ENTHUSIASM DISPLAYED BY THE NEW COIN COLLECTOR. On this site an actual approximate value of an attributed coin IS NEVER GIVEN to anyone.

Now, all of this presents problems if one decides to INSURE their collection. How does the collector assess the value of the collection if the "values" of the individual coins is/are not known? How does one verify the value of a collection if the individual coins cannot be proved to have value?

I can easily see where a coin collector would find a particularly rare coin of considerable value, but get SCREWED out of that value when being overcharged by a grading company for attribution and then (optional) paying an auction house their HUGE fees, and by the time the collector pays all the fees, the coin does not realize a gain or profit for the collector and those with the control of the markets (I.E. GRADING COMPANIES AND AUCTION HOUSES) gobble up the increased value the collector SHOULD HAVE REALIZED.

In my five years of intensive study, collecting, networking, and collaborating with numatists, it is my opinion that 55% of numistists are honest, forthright and enjoyable people willing to give advice, information and education, the other 45% are dishonest, misleading, and purposefully deceiving (for a profit)and the higher one goes up the "food chain" of numismatics, the worse the players are.

[Jamez]

THEN, there are the MANY times I have been told of "large" coin companies submitting huge amounts of coins of one type or another....telling the representatives (example) these 30 coins are "70's," these 20 coins are "69's" and these 25 coins are "68's" and THAT IS EXACTLY HOW THE SLABS COME OUT.

Then we have the "First Strike" "First Day of Release" and other designations that HAVE MISLEADING OR NO ACTUAL MEANING WHATSOEVER in numismatics. I have spoken to the representative supervisors at the US Mint and they state these titles ARE IN FACT MISLEADING AND HAVE NO VALIDITY. YET, the grading companies STILL MISLEAD THE COIN COLLECTORS WITH THESE TITLES implying these coin titles ADD VALUE to the coins, which they do not! WHY EXPERT NUMATISTS do not band together and pressure these grading companies to drop misleading and inappropriate titles is beyond me.

Then there are the actual values given to slabbed coins. Sometimes PCGS/NGC will assign a value to a graded coin, SOMETIMES they do not assign a value AT ALL, or they will post "value not available". WHY THE HELL DO THESE GRADING COMPANIES """NOT""" ASSIGN A VALUE TO EACH AND EVERY COIN THAT IS SLABBED???? EXCUSE ME, BUT THERE IS """NOT""" ONE COIN COLLECTOR OUT THERE THAT IS """NOT""" INTERESTED IN THE FULL AND FAIR VALUE OF EACH AND EVERY COIN.

THERE IS NOT ONE EXPERT ON THIS SITE THAT WOULD GIVE A $500 COIN TO A STRANGER AT A COIN SHOW FOR FREE JUST BECAUSE THEY SAW ENTHUSIASM DISPLAYED BY THE NEW COIN COLLECTOR. On this site an actual approximate value of an attributed coin IS NEVER GIVEN to anyone.

In my five years of intensive study, collecting, networking, and collaborating with numatists, it is my opinion that 55% of numistists are honest, forthright and enjoyable people willing to give advice, information and education, the other 45% are dishonest, misleading, and purposefully deceiving (for a profit)and the higher one goes up the "food chain" of numismatics, the worse the players are.

I have to take issue with a few of the things you have said that are simply your opinion and bear no factual basis.
First: Hearing rumors or statements on a coin forum does not make it factual. Prove to me that any of the TPG's do as you stated with the big guys telling them what grades to put on coins.. I say that it a false statement based on what I know. Prove me wrong.
Second: The TPG's are in the game to make money and some of their gimmicks I agree are falling in a grey area, the First Strike etc.. its all fluff and anyone who knows coins knows this. See the settlement about the PCI/Coin Dealer lawsuit just settled in a court of law.
Third: Putting a value on a coin is either done by researching past sales or actually selling a coin. The list that the TPG's supply is not accurate and everyone who is involved in the hobby knows that. I know of no dealers, collectors or hobbyist who take those number serious.. Perhaps the guys in Pawn Stars do when they sell their coins?
Fourth: Your WRONG about an expert on this site not giving away coins. I have seen it first hand on more than one occasion. Might not have been a $500 coin but certainly over $100.
Fifth: You state you have 5 years of extensive research, I have been at this game for 48 years, many others here have more experience than I. 5 years of anything does not make you a professional.
Sixth: you state that we (the forum) has never given anyone a value on a coin, we are here to educate people on errors and varieties, not to buy, sell, trade or give out prices on coins. I personally could not tell you what my error/variety collection is worth because frankly I don't care what its worth. I bet Ken Potter, Mike Diamond or any of the experts here couldn't tell you the value of theirs either. If your in this for the money then your a different breed in my eyes.

Sorry if you have had bad experiences with the TPG's, but you have a choice. Don't use them! To me they offer an encapsulation of a coin and an opinion on the grade and occasionally will give it some type of designation. Do I pay more for coins like this? NO. I buy coins that I like, I pay for a coin based on what its worth to me today. What its worth tomorrow is of no concern.

[koinpro]

In my five years of intensive study, collecting, networking, and collaborating with numatists, it is my opinion that 55% of numistists are honest, forthright and enjoyable people willing to give advice, information and education, the other 45% are dishonest, misleading, and purposefully deceiving (for a profit)and the higher one goes up the "food chain" of numismatics, the worse the players are.

First, "numatists" is spelled "numismatists". In 55 years of collecting and 42 years in the numismatic business, I have found that over 98% of the folks I have dealt with over the years are honest. I have no idea of where you are finding this "bottom of the barrel" that you speak of.

As far as the rest of your tirade I found much of it to be outright false. Nothing is perfect in an imperfect world but things are just not as you say. If you don't like PCGS/NGC, don't use them -- it's that simple.

I won't address you issues point by point since Jim did so quite aptly.

I'll close in saying that these types of issues have no place being aired on this forum.

[Merlin8971]

Response

I have to take issue with a few of the things you have said that are simply your opinion and bear no factual basis.
First: Hearing rumors or statements on a coin forum does not make it factual. Prove to me that any of the TPG's do as you stated with the big guys telling them what grades to put on coins.. I say that it a false statement based on what I know. Prove me wrong.
Second: The TPG's are in the game to make money and some of their gimmicks I agree are falling in a grey area, the First Strike etc.. its all fluff and anyone who knows coins knows this. See the settlement about the PCI/Coin Dealer lawsuit just settled in a court of law.
Third: Putting a value on a coin is either done by researching past sales or actually selling a coin. The list that the TPG's supply is not accurate and everyone who is involved in the hobby knows that. I know of no dealers, collectors or hobbyist who take those number serious.. Perhaps the guys in Pawn Stars do when they sell their coins?
Fourth: Your WRONG about an expert on this site not giving away coins. I have seen it first hand on more than one occasion. Might not have been a $500 coin but certainly over $100.
Fifth: You state you have 5 years of extensive research, I have been at this game for 48 years, many others here have more experience than I. 5 years of anything does not make you a professional.
Sixth: you state that we (the forum) has never given anyone a value on a coin, we are here to educate people on errors and varieties, not to buy, sell, trade or give out prices on coins. I personally could not tell you what my error/variety collection is worth because frankly I don't care what its worth. I bet Ken Potter, Mike Diamond or any of the experts here couldn't tell you the value of theirs either. If your in this for the money then your a different breed in my eyes.

Sorry if you have had bad experiences with the TPG's, but you have a choice. Don't use them! To me they offer an encapsulation of a coin and an opinion on the grade and occasionally will give it some type of designation. Do I pay more for coins like this? NO. I buy coins that I like, I pay for a coin based on what its worth to me today. What its worth tomorrow is of no concern.

Response: 1. I was not stating rumors or statements made on a forum. I was at the "FUN" show two years ago and I observed a (what I would assume was a "big" dealer) person place a large number of Silver Eagles as described earlier and "appeared" to do exactly as I stated. (I did not obverse the coins being returned to the dealer, therefore can be seen as a "rumor" or here say since I cannot "prove" the coins came back as the dealer requested them to be, that part was "here say" from the local dealer) A long time local dealer of 40 years that I know, was there and explained to me what may have occurred at that particular time. I agree that this is a third party observation (here say) and would not hold up in court. Seeing this occur does not "prove" the circumstances, but it "suggests" that this does occur. What was seen could prompt investigation into these practices. The "point" being, some big dealers DO IN FACT get treated differently than the small coin collector submitting "one or two coins". I can guarantee, and I doubt if you can disagree, that these large dealers are not paying nearly the same fees as the lowly coin collector. Just because you think a statement is false (thru your own experience) does not make the statement true or false. Only evidence can do that.

(Personally, this being an imperfect world, one COULD try to make things the same for all involved, making it a LESS imperfect world. My opinion about "Nothing is perfect in this world," can be an excuse for justification for NOT making things better)

Even the US Mint sells "huge" quantities of coins to the mega-dealers and at vastly discounted rates that the small collector has no privy to. The last two 5 oz National Park silver quarters issued by the Mint that I purchased from one of these mega dealers both cost me $110 and $115 respectively, far cheaper than what it would have cost me ($149.95) purchased from the US Mint directly.

Try purchasing one or two roll of 2015 dimes or nickels from the US Mint. Ya cant do it. You either have to get lucky at a bank or purchase the roll(s) on E-Bay or the like. Then there is the "Coin Dealers Newsletter" which give the bid/ask of all kinds of rolls and individual coins or sets on a weekly monthly and quarterly period. THAT is 100% about the value of coins. No purists there!

2. The US Mint supervisor I spoke with said that the US Mint did issue some sort of warning to the TPG's that this practice (i.e. "First Strikes" etc) was not permitted and the TPG's still do it.

(Just because your 40+ years of knowledge may help you sort this out, but what about the "newer" coin collectors that do not have that same knowledge when purchasing TPG slabbed coins.)

3. I am aware of how the TPG companies use public sales numbers to calculate values of similar coins and grades. It may not be completely accurate but it is a good working comparison either way. I would hope that the "experts" on CONECO could/would do the same. I am sure a disclaimer as to the value being approximate would not hurt anyone and make it clear these are not hard values .(the Pawn Stars almost always bring in an "expert" to evaluate coins." (one particular "expert" is actually an official NGC grader that is utilized on Pawn Stars)). I am not familiar with the court case, but just the existence of a court case supports my position.

4. I mentioned that 55% of "dealers and experts" ARE, IN FACT, honest and fair in their dealings, sometimes even generous. So, one would expect some people are much more generous. Even I have experienced this. BUT, THIS IS """NOT""" THE GENERAL PRACTICE ACROSS THE FIELD. The higher up the "food chain" (i.e. TPG's and such) of coin collecting, the more it is about the money and not the hobby.

5. Five years of extensive research, study and work will allow a Mechanical Engineer to become a "Professional" registered Engineer. So, the 40 plus years you speak of IS QUITE IMPRESSIVE. However, I contend it is not the number of years in a field, it is the amount of knowledge that is acquired (AND RETAINED) that is more important than the number of years in a particular field. I have seen dealers who have been into coin collecting for 35 years and they do not have NEARLY the same knowledge of others with the same time experience.

6. I think it is possible to go to other associated CONECO sites and purchase coins, and I see nothing wrong with that. But to say this is a "Purist" site is stretching the truth just a bit. Again, I see nothing wrong with this. The ONLY criticism I would give (not that I am anyone special) to this site is that there is not as much "detail" as I would like at times. It is more of my anal retentive nature that longs for a more complete explanation of the characteristics that proves the coin is such and such, rather than...."this is what it is" without details of why it is what it is. That is what I would call the "exchange of experience and knowledge." But that is just my viewpoint.

As for me, I do try to place accurate values on all of my coins (excluding many wheat cents and Indian head coins and some others I wrapped back into rolls). My spreadsheet lists 10's of thousands of coins, their description, dates of purchase, cost of the purchases, and apparent value of the coins.

You are EXACTLY right in saying if one does not like or has issues with TPG's, do not use them. Although the slabbed coins do offer some "expertise" guarantees and can be useful, I believe that if one can see distinct and clear doubling on a 1955 doubled die obverse Lincoln (one of the "big" ones) then one does not need a TPG to classify the coin. It is quite obvious looking at the coin. However, one must keep in mind there are fakes out there and if TPG's says a coin is genuine, that IS a plus.

One can argue either side of this issues with many examples to back them up. It is the subtle differences that make or break an argument. When a situation occurs like finding a stash of 20,000 rare Morgan dollars previously unknown to exist, that depreciates the already known coins, no one who ALREADY owns ONE OR MORE of these rarities celebrates the hit in value the known coins undergo."

I enjoy coin collecting, and these are MY opinions, experiences, and observations. I am not COMPLETELY without experience or knowledge. I am NOT trying to start any argument, I am not trying to "prove" anyone wrong or right. Values of coins are important to a degree. I rarely purchase anything "just" for their value. I purchase to fill a hole in my collection or because I think the particular coin is beautiful to me. I seriously doubt that I will ever sell my collection, so the value is less important to me, but I am not stupid enough to say my collection has NO value.

[Merlin8971]

"I'll close in saying that these types of issues have no place being aired on this forum.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for correcting my speeling.
Sorry, I did not know personal exeriences and opinions are NOT WELCOME here. Please note, I DID NOT start this thread, I merely gave my opinions and experiences as they happened. However, I will remember that when my CONECO yearly dues come up.....oh wait....that happened last week. humm...comtemplating!

However, if you think 98% of the coin collecting world is 100% honest and forthright.........really? How many "First Strike" coins has PCGS (the highest rated and most regarded TPG company in the country) put out there??

[koinpro]

You seem to be missing the point. I can't help to think you are the kind of guy that gets mad at the girl at the cash register because the price of beef went up -- as if she's a part of some conspiracy.

I saw no grading service bashing going on in the original post. I saw some factual concerns -- that was it.

In regard to your membership, if you choose to stay or go is up to you. It's a totally separate issue. What you have been posing is not the purpose of this forum. CONECA's primary purpose is for education.

I suggest you read the forum rules: http://board.conecaonline.org/showthread.php?t=4251 starting with rule #1. That applies to entities as well as individuals.

[Stachowski]

Ok, I have to step in here, its getting out of hand . Reminds me of my job. Lol . Merlin8971 I understand your worries about " Bulk Graded Coins " the dealer at Pcgs are getting tired of it to, one of the thread I read was on the " March Of Dime Sets " one person said they sent in 100 coins, and around three quarters of them came back at 70 .. Just wait to the fools that buy theses 70 graded coins find out 100s if not a thousand came back at that grade, and now their sell for around 600.00 dollars . But with that said, Coneca is a error company, and has nothing to do with this, I think thats why everyone is saying what their saying, so don't take it personally, and roll with the punches ...

[Merlin8971]

Rule #1

OK, I read the rules (again) and maybe I have misinterpreted what that means. I was just relating my experience with grading companies as the first poster did. Standardization. But I will not "flame" anyone or any entity, as you put it. nuff said.

[Merlin8971]

Flaming?

[QUOTE=koinpro;15710]You seem to be missing the point. I can't help to think you are the kind of guy that gets mad at the girl at the cash register because the price of beef went up -- as if she's a part of some conspiracy.

QUOTE]

Nothin like flaming, huh?

[koinpro]

Merlin8971,

I responded to your post due to another member complaining about what he saw. My board seat oversees complaints and grievances ... so I'm doing what I was elected to do.

What you have done is clearly contrary to the rules set up for this forum.

My comment on the price of beef is just my take. If you find it offensive I wonder how the 45% of the folks you say are dishonest in this hobby feel.

You are in essence saying that almost half of our members are dishonest. I find that offense and and I'm willing to bet the member that complained did too.

Why not just cool down and remember what the purpose of this club is and contribute something educational. Anything, even a photo or two. I'd welcome your contributions in this manner. I understand you have having problems with uploading image. You may have to size them down. Most forums restrict size. For example, CFF only allows images up to 200 KB. Size down the resolution and try again.

Ken

[Merlin8971]

Ironic

I find it ironic that you accused me of flaming others out one side of your mouth and THEN turn around and FLAME me with the other side of your mouth!!!! I did NOT mention ANYTHING about the members of this forum in any way shape or form. I did NOT accuse anyone on this forum of doing anything untoward. I was speaking of major companies and huge dealers (how many members here are dealers?) Maybe my estimation of 45% feels a bit much for you BUT 98% is ALSO a fantastical number also, and you KNOW IT.

My definition of flaming: Using false statements to bring an undeserved negative light to the other person; attacking others to deflect attention away from the answer; making fantastical statement out of reality to reflect negatively on another person.

You make a somewhat ambigious rule (that we are supposed to interpret what you meant) and then you turn around and break your own rule. Yes, it is your site and you and the other officers of this site run it. Fine, do what you will.

If PCGS is so wonderful, why do they use a "First Strike" designation (which the US Mint disagrees with) as a marketing tool which they themselves know is erronious? How much does the "First Strike" designation add value to a slabbed coin? We both know it does NOT add any value to the coin. As for the coin that was replaced by someone at PCGS, that happened and I have the original photos, the coin sent to me and all the e-mail correspondence between me and PCGS. Another person on this site very recently ALSO made mention of this occurance happening to them. I did not have a smart phone when the "dealer" set up those many Silver Eagles on their table, so I cannot "PROVE" to your moderators here what I said, but I DO have a smart phone now and maybe when I go to the FUN show this year I can capture a similar transaction. But.....would you believe me then?

I really do not care, I know what occurred and I do not have to "PROVE" it to anyone here. You believe me or you don't. No matter to me. My ego does not need a boost, so I have no reason nor inclination to lie. It certainly will not increase the value of my collect "one red cent."

You and all those who have been involved in coin collecting 30, 40 years HAVE to be aware of these practices by PCGS and others. The big checkbook gets favors. Honesty, trust, and integrity are the major qualities (if not the only qualities) of numismatics and when those qualities are not present, everyone suffers.

When I was a complete novice (only three months into collecting), I purchased from a supposedly reputable company selling massive numbers of these coins, a 1879-S Rev 79 Morgan silver dollar on E-Bay graded MS66 which I paid a small price for (less than $100). The coin I received may be, just may be an MS60 and was graded by what I now know was, a fourth tier company. Luckily the price I paid was about what the MS60- was worth, so I did not get "burned". However, if the coin WAS an MS66 it would have been worth approximately $6000 (Red Book). Yes, now I know better. E-Bay did nothing about this when I reported it to them. The other company continued to sell these coins for at least six months after my complaint. I never purchased anything else from them. And I learned as much as I could as quickly as I could.

YES, education IS the key.

Although I own a number of "First Strike" coins, I do NOT purchase coins BECAUSE they are so-called "First Strike" coins and I would not purchase the coin "just because" it is a "First Strike" and I would certainly NOT pay a premium for the coin because of that designation.

Maybe you should go back and re-read what I wrote.

[Jamez]

This thread is being closed. Merlin. If you have a problem with the TPG's. Please take it to the TPG's forum. Complaining here is accomplishing nothing but me getting complaints about your posting..

Discussion is done.