1994d DOUBLE DIE?

[diamond]

Machine doubling has nothing to do with any feature on the working hub or any feature of the working die. It is due to a press malfunction. I'd call it a striking error while James Wiles and Alan Herbert would call it "damage". Regardless, it's due to a press malfunction.

[foundinrolls]

Hi BJ,

Interesting thought but I might submit that until the edge lettering is applied, the coin is still considered being minted and therefore this is not post strike issue.

Thanks,
Bill

Now we run into a big problem. By the definition that is in place now, all the presidential dollars with milled doubled letters on the edge or variations to the edge lettering and also including the Sacajawea dollar with milled letters on the edge, by definition, are considered damaged coins because this all happened post strike.

BJ Neff

[foundinrolls]

Hi,
I will also respectfully submit that their are many errors in Alan's description of the Minting processes as described in that book. the book itself is actually one source of mis-information that is out there.

hanks,
Bill

[wavysteps]

Hey Bill, happy to see you back. By the way, I fully agree that the only design element that was applied to any die by a punch is the mint mark and I also believe that James Wiles feels this way also.

As to the milling of the letters on the edge, my point was that we can run afoul by using the strict sense impled by definitions. As to when the striking of a coin is complete or as to when a die is complete and ready for service maybe should be re-thought. However, I do imagine there will never be a consensus as to when these actions are thought to be finished. So, we live with what we have and try to make do (LOL).

BJ Neff

[foundinrolls]

Hi BJ,

I agree. There are definitely some definitions and concepts that are a little fuzzy around the edges:-) Thanks for the welcoming back:-)

Have Fun,
Bill

[billscoins]

Hi, Guys I was about to give up on you guys, but I guess I should not because you are trying to do your best with the observations you have made over a life time of looking at coins. Experience is a very valuable teacher and I know you have all acquired it the hard way (looking at thousands of coins). My experience is a little different. I've been making precision metal parts for the last 36 years. I have been Engineering and developing production processes for metal parts in my own facility and others throughout that time period.

As to Mr. Herbert’s misinformation I do believe you may be right about him being in error in some of his conclusions, however, his understanding of the processes involved in the manufacturing of coins seems to be the most concise I've read so for. He seems to understand die design, die sets, use of stripper techniques, collars, blanking and vibratory parts feeders better than anyone else I've read. He also seems to have a good idea of what a die setup man does around high-speed presses. (I would also like to point out that I have personally built progressive/compound dies, which have punched and formed copper parts at 350 hits per minute.)

One thing you should take into consideration when you draw your conclusions on how these coins were formed is that any press operating in excess of 100 hits per minute would tear itself apart in about 15 minutes if it had .003 of an inch slop in its ways. I do not know conclusively how this process evolved, yet, but I do know you are not taking all factors into consideration in forming your conclusions.
Thanks, Bill

[ibyandsellsmith]

I found the same quarter

I started photographing this coin because of the machine doubling on In God we trust and then I noticed the lips, which in my opinion has nothing to do with machine doubling. I do find it odd that out of three coins now they all exhibit the same characteristics. I've looked at many 1970-S and generally the doubling is somewhat different, anyway I'll put the photos in order of the way I took them then cropped them. The third is when I seen the lips the fourth I just took. I'm having trouble photographing the coin.

[wavysteps]

I believe that this is part of the machine doubling seen on "IN GOD WE TRUST"

BJ Neff

[ibyandsellsmith]

I believe that this is part of the machine doubling seen on "IN GOD WE TRUST"

BJ Neff

Well really when I look at the lips closer you can see that the doubling on the lips doesn't continue all the way up or down. It's not complete I should say. I'm that guy that looks at coin after coin and the fact is to me it's an error. I like the designation mdd and will keep looking.
Yeah to the coin Gods.