Die State example

[russellhome]

Being fairly new to the hobby, I still have a lot to learn. One area I've had trouble with is distinguishing Early Die State (EDS) from Mid Die State (MDS). I think I'm getting Late Die State (LDS) down but there are times when I'm not sure if I'm seeing LDS or just plain wear.

Anyway -- I recently found my first duplicate of a German doubled die. Both are at least XF/AU and one of them is clearly a much earlier die state than the other. The later die state has 3 significant die cracks and the earlier die state version has only a faint sign of one of the cracks. And of course, the earlier die state shows MUCH better detail than the latter die state. The early version shows the separation lines of each 'squeeze' very clearly - while on the later version, the separation lines are fading away. I imagine that with a little more die wear, the doubling will just appear as extra thickness. Here are the two photos...




Note the sideways S in the upper right, the inside loops of the 8 & 9 and the right sides of 938. Lots of separation line detail has been lost. Now I know why EDS versions of a DD sell for such a significant premium over later die states.

I do have a question in all of this... What are the key factors that distinguish the transition from EDS to MDS? Is the earlier version above EDS or MDS? Can a die have a minor die crack and still be considered EDS?

If you have any good examples of die state differences for the same die variety, please add them to this post.

[foundinrolls]

Hi,

My first observation is that the coin shows at least Tripling and perhaps as many as six hubbings offset from one another making this perhaps a .....I don't even know what to call it:-) A Sextupled die perhaps:-)

It is an interesting coin or coins and for a die variety nut, like me. Nice finds! While I don't know how rare it is overall as it is possible that others are out there it is still impressive to see all those lines of doubling on the date and lettering.

As far as die states, others will probably do a better job of explaining that than I will but,

I think the study of die states involves the comparison of many , many coins struck by the same die to analyze the degree of wear to the die. That being said, I don't know if there is a way to determine where in the hierachy of die states these two coins would fall since there hasn't been an exhaustive study done on this series of coins, to my knowledge.

The differences in the numbers of die breaks would be one indication, but a die can theoretically develop cracks after just one hit so an early die state piece can indeed have die cracks.

On your coins, wear plays a part in the appearance of the coins. I would therefore think that die states are better determined on coins that are XF/ AU and above in condition when it comes to coins that are not often studied with respect to die states.

It is safe to say that in some series of US coins that have been analyzed over the years it is possible to classify a coin by die state even when worn because the studies that determined markers were done on coins in higher states of preservation.

So I think what I am saying is that it is tough to answer your question specifically about die states on these two coins.

Maybe someone else can add to this.

Thanks,
Bill

[JamesWiles]

Bill: You may be thinking of die stage which is unique to a given die. Die state is more general. It involves the degree to which every die ages. Die state is determined by the degree of sharpness (lack of metal flow lines) to the design elements. EDS has very sharp edges to the design. LDS has slopped edges. As the die ages the metal flows into the crevices of the die (area of least resistance) causing the edges of the design to slope like a mountain falling down.
Die stage on the other hand is unique to each die and depends upon exactly how that particular die aged. It is described by the die tear (die cracks, die chips, die scratches, gouges, etc.). Since each die is unique in this manner, many coins from the die have to be examined before the stage sequence can be catalogued.
The two have been described like a book. The chapter divisions are equivalent to die state. The pages in the chapter are the die stages.

[JamesWiles]

Russell: The top photo appears to be EDS while the lower appears to be LDS. Yes, it is possible to have a die crack in EDS. If the die fails early, it could even have a Cud.

[foundinrolls]

Hi James,

That is an excellent distinction that I hadn't been entirely clear on. Thanks for explaining the differences between die stage and die state.

I can be 100% sure that until now, I had been using the terms interchangeably. I am 110% sure that I now understand the reasoning behind why I shouldn't.

Have Fun,
Bill