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1957-D DDO, MD or BOTH ?! Who made this die?!

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  • MintErrors
    Minterrors.org
    • Jun 2015
    • 3554

    1957-D DDO, MD or BOTH ?! Who made this die?!

    OK, yesterday I made a post about the 1959-D Ugly FG. I think I have found a runner-up for another ugly coin of the... year?
    Hey, I am just pulling coins from tubes in boxes and what comes up, comes up. If I was going to cherry pick coins, I'd show you my best.

    So The coin I pulled was out of a 1957-D tube that had a few question marks on the label. I put this coin under the scope and it was close to LIBERTY so I took a look at it first:

    1957-D poss DDO-LIBERTY-x2.jpg

    My immediate thought was, what the heck is going on with this coin? parts of LIBERTY look like its affected by machine doubling, but parts of LIBERTY look like a doubled die. So, I decided to look at the date.

    Now wait a Minute?! USUALLY there is a logical common sense approach with doubled dies, and doubled dies have a typical direction the doubling occurs. THIS coin is starting to worry me. The "9" shows me what I think is a nice cookie cutter style line that is South and West of the primary "9".

    NOW, look at the "5" . There is another "what the heck" head scratching event. The Cookie cutter style line is East of the primary "5". In most cases, this is quite odd and it makes you wonder if some one attempted some Tom-foolery at the mint. Or the higher probability is that is is machine doubling, cut and dry.

    1957-D poss DDO-19xx-x8.jpg

    So I decided to get up close and person on LIBERTY. I wanted to see what was going on and if it makes any sense at all. here is LIBERTY:

    The "L" is nearly non existent. Its been sheered off. The only normal looking thing is the "I", I mean, on the coin.

    1957-D poss DDO-LI-x8.jpg

    The "B" and "E" make things about as confusing as it can be. It could be very difficult to tell if this is simply machine doubling or a doubled die.
    That "B" is just crazy wrong. That's not a "cookie cutter style line" that is just - wrong. <smirk>

    The "E" shows more promise of what a Doubled die SHOULD look like, but - hey look, again, this coin appears to be abnormal so let's keep moving on.

    1957-D poss DDO-BE-x8.jpg

    The "RT" of LIBERTY is a 50/50 shot. In the military, the submariners I knew used to say " You have a 50/50 chance of making the correct choice, but 90% of the time, they make the wrong choice". This pretty much applies to this coin. It looks too odd to be a doubled die... right?

    GEESH that "T" is just wrong. The top crossbar looks like a true doubled die, but the leg of the "T" looks like it was etched during an earthquake by some one hung over. And, well the "R" is far from perfect too, It has that unnatural look to it. The more I looked, the more I laughed.

    1957-D poss DDO-RT-x8.jpg

    The "Y" does not disappoint. have a look - wait maybe it does. <smirk>

    1957-D poss DDO-ty-x8.jpg

    Well, the only thing I had left to look at was Lincoln himself. He looked "normal". Nothing funny going on there. IN GOD WE TRUST was pretty normal considering what we see in LIBERTY and the date, so I wasn't going to second guess something truly looking normal.

    The best approach to a coin like this is research. I opened up a browser window and surfed to http://varietyvista.com
    I then went into Lincoln Cent doubled dies and chose the 1957-D year

    http://varietyvista.com/01a%20LC%20D...O%201957-D.htm

    Once that page loaded, I busted out laughing. I was like so - this - coin is sort of "normal" for this year and mintmark? what is a DDO and what parts are machine doubling? HOW does this make any sense? I mean, WHO in the world made these dies? Was this their first - (and probably last) attempt(s) at making dies? I mean come on, what other years have potential DDO's ( or DDR's) that look this.... wrong? Are they SURE these attributions are correct?

    Ok, so now you see why research of coins makes a big difference when it comes to potential doubled dies. I did a logical approach to this coin and I weighed the facts that were in front of me. For you all, I recommend reading the post that is in my signature block to see what logical steps I show in there. It will help attribute this coin whether it is a doubled die or not, or both.

    Then I will leave you with just one more photo, if the system will allow it. That's the last hint. This could be some random thing or it could be important, that's up to you to decide what it is. That's all I got.

    1957-D poss DDO-die-marker.jpg


    Go ahead make the call on what this is. If it is too confusing, I will gladly supply the answer. I hope. <LOL>
    With the data provided you should be able to make a logical call on whether it is machine doubling, a doubled die ( and if so, the appropriate one) or if it is both. Good luck.

    OK, You die hard error/variety veterans out there, let the less experienced collectors take a shot at this coin first ! Thanks !
    Last edited by MintErrors; 03-30-2022, 08:00 PM.
    Gary Kozera
    Website: https://MintErrors.org
  • Kloccwork419
    Banned
    • Dec 2020
    • 488

    #2
    Ooops. Didn’t see the bottom. Deleted

    Comment

    • PNWMAKES
      • Dec 2021
      • 529

      #3
      I figured it out...

      Comment

      • MintErrors
        Minterrors.org
        • Jun 2015
        • 3554

        #4
        Originally posted by PNWMAKES View Post
        I figured it out...
        Thanks for the look. I hope it was helpful .
        Gary Kozera
        Website: https://MintErrors.org

        Comment

        • MintErrors
          Minterrors.org
          • Jun 2015
          • 3554

          #5
          Originally posted by Kloccwork419 View Post
          Ooops. Didn’t see the bottom. Deleted
          Ha! I know you love Lincolns, and I posted the article and thought, MAN, what happens if some one comes in and provides the answer right away? That would probably skew some people's thoughts. I appreciate the post.

          I got quite a few of these weird ones, probably half a tube just in 1957 era. I might have to do another one just before the weekend with less clues.
          Gary Kozera
          Website: https://MintErrors.org

          Comment

          • considine
            Banned
            • Jan 2022
            • 236

            #6
            Oh my, this is a tough one but I love the challenge. I looked at the Variety Vista sight and the DDO'S do seem to be very similar and several mention split serifs on the date. But I did not see any that have that marker on the last pic. DD's are not my strong suit for sure.

            Since the L in Liberty is nonexistent then that would mean a slightly off-centered strike. So how does that affect the other attributes? Is that what is throwing me off?

            Thank you for this very interesting post MintErrors.

            Comment

            • MintErrors
              Minterrors.org
              • Jun 2015
              • 3554

              #7
              Originally posted by considine View Post
              Oh my, this is a tough one but I love the challenge. I looked at the Variety Vista sight and the DDO'S do seem to be very similar and several mention split serifs on the date. But I did not see any that have that marker on the last pic. DD's are not my strong suit for sure.

              Since the L in Liberty is nonexistent then that would mean a slightly off-centered strike. So how does that affect the other attributes? Is that what is throwing me off?

              Thank you for this very interesting post MintErrors.


              This is what I suggest doing.
              Look at the above full photo of LIBERTY.
              Then surf to that varietyista.com page listed above.
              See if there is a semi close match to any of the other LIBERTY's presented on the varietyvista's page.

              Open up the ones you suspect that might be could be should be a match.
              Just make sure you're using all of the photos I provided in your attempt at attributing this coin.

              I won't spoil the surprise either way, but the "L" in LIBERTY is probably just pure machine doubling.
              The rim is fully intact on that side, so nothing would be considered off center or even a chance at a MAD (mis-aligned die).
              Gary Kozera
              Website: https://MintErrors.org

              Comment

              • Kloccwork419
                Banned
                • Dec 2020
                • 488

                #8
                Nice pick up is RTY and of course the MM position and cant forget the gouge.

                This exercise got me to notice that Coppercoins has 1DO-003 cross referenced to DDO-003. Thats wrong
                Last edited by Kloccwork419; 03-31-2022, 04:01 PM.

                Comment

                • considine
                  Banned
                  • Jan 2022
                  • 236

                  #9
                  Ok DDO-012 - there is a die gouge NE of T in TRUST- but the MM does not seem to be in the right spot...DDO-003 does not have the die gouge but the MM looks closer

                  Comment

                  • Kloccwork419
                    Banned
                    • Dec 2020
                    • 488

                    #10
                    You have to remember that LOTS of the pictures on all the attribution sites are at an angle, which gets to me pretty bad. Im sure Gary has his at a straight shot. DDO-12 your final answer?
                    Last edited by Kloccwork419; 03-31-2022, 04:05 PM.

                    Comment

                    • MintErrors
                      Minterrors.org
                      • Jun 2015
                      • 3554

                      #11
                      Originally posted by considine View Post
                      Ok DDO-012 - there is a die gouge NE of T in TRUST- but the MM does not seem to be in the right spot...DDO-003 does not have the die gouge but the MM looks closer
                      Ooooh, Considine IS an attributer after all. Same with Kloc and PNWMAKES. Good job.

                      These things take a bit to write up. I will attempt to do more of these, but you may have to read them on my website and provide your answers here. That way, I can save the post in draft mode until I can finish it at a later date. Plus, I can use a larger photo is needed.

                      Be on the lookout for more of...."what the heck is this?" posts.
                      Gary Kozera
                      Website: https://MintErrors.org

                      Comment

                      • PNWMAKES
                        • Dec 2021
                        • 529

                        #12
                        Originally posted by MintErrors View Post

                        Ooooh, Considine IS an attributer after all. Same with Kloc and PNWMAKES. Good job.

                        These things take a bit to write up. I will attempt to do more of these, but you may have to read them on my website and provide your answers here. That way, I can save the post in draft mode until I can finish it at a later date. Plus, I can use a larger photo is needed.

                        Be on the lookout for more of...."what the heck is this?" posts.
                        Please do more write ups when you can really enjoyed the challenge

                        Comment

                        • considine
                          Banned
                          • Jan 2022
                          • 236

                          #13
                          Yes DDO-12 is my final answer. I am thinking the die markers are very important. How interesting that the L was MD and the entire rim seems to be affected - is this flat field doubling? So can I conclude that the LSD is where you more than likely would see MD and therefore this combination of MD and DD?

                          Comment

                          • MintErrors
                            Minterrors.org
                            • Jun 2015
                            • 3554

                            #14
                            Originally posted by considine View Post
                            Yes DDO-12 is my final answer. I am thinking the die markers are very important. How interesting that the L was MD and the entire rim seems to be affected - is this flat field doubling? So can I conclude that the LSD is where you more than likely would see MD and therefore this combination of MD and DD?


                            Technically, it is both yes, since machine doubling is on the side the doubled die attribution is taking place. Even if it is minor, I acknowledge it is there and try to see how much of it could affect the rest of the coin.

                            One day I might research a bit more on this 1957-D year to see if anyone has taken the time to document why this year/mm was so "unnatural" for doubled dies. They just look - wrong.

                            Machine doubling can appear just about anywhere, its a movement of machinery and an untimely striking of the coin or ejection of a coin which gets it damaged. To me, machine doubling tends to sheer away part of the device (letter, number, other items on a coin design) and Flat Field doubling seems to have two meanings to me. In the sense of strike doubling, the normal die will quickly strike the coin twice ( some call it a bounce), but on that second very minor strike, it will flatten down part of the coin down to the flat field area.

                            Flat field doubling to me also means this. Let's say a coin is struck three times. Let's say each strike is slightly off axis from each other. The first two strikes will be severely affected by that third strike if that area is within the flat field area of that third strike. So, in other words, the flat field area, where is anywhere there is not a letter, number, building or other device on that coin. The first two strikes will be leveled to that flat field area if it is open game by the 3rd strike.

                            here is a overly perfect example. look how that last strike affected the other two strikes, where there should be some hint of the strikes within the flat area of the 3rd strike.

                            https://coins.ha.com/itm/errors/1973.../60156-91258.s


                            Geesh, I believe "lowest probability locations" for machine doubling is for the obverse, Lincoln himself and for the reverse, its a tough call between the Memorial building and the designer initials. Everything else seems like it is open season for machine doubling, especially from 1959 through the mid 1970s.
                            Last edited by MintErrors; 04-01-2022, 02:25 PM.
                            Gary Kozera
                            Website: https://MintErrors.org

                            Comment

                            • considine
                              Banned
                              • Jan 2022
                              • 236

                              #15
                              Oh that explanation of Machine and Flat Field Doubling is very helpful. Thank you MintErrors

                              Comment

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