2004-D 5c Keelboat Missing Clad and other errors

[wavysteps]

I can look at the nickel posted in this thread and relate it to many clad Roosevelt dimes that I find mixed in with Lincoln cent rolls. On the average, I find about 10 to 15 such coins per box of cents ($25.00)

You would think that people could tell the difference between a shine silver coin and a copper colored coin, however, all the dimes that I have found have oxidized a bit and since that outer layer is 75 % copper (25 % nickel), the copper color tends to be more predominant. I do believe that is what has happened to your coin for the entire nickel is made from the exact same metals as is the clad coin, 75 % copper, 25 % nickel. When it begins to oxidize, the copper color will be more predominant.

Now, if you do send it into CONECA for analysis or attribution, it will end up in Mike Diamond's hands since you are trying to qualify the coin as off metal. If it were a doubled die, which I can not see, then James Wiles would have the honors of attributing the coin.

Since Mike has given his opinion and I do not think he will change his mind, I believe that a source outside of CONECA would be the best bet for you to pursue to see if this is what you think it is, an off metal nickel.

BJ Neff

[Novicetoerr]

2004-D 5c Keelboat Missing Clad and other errors

- Mike and Bill have addressed the initial coin symptoms I presented.

- BJ's latest response addressed the latest and last symptom I presented
last night, that made me further do one more exploration. Noted that I
used a 600-grit polisher last night (too fine -> that a copper like color tend
to dominate the luster visually). Went back and used a 200-grit paper,
and KA-BOOM... the luster is now 100% identical with the reference coin.

- Your inputs and results of my crude (though adequate enough) verification
process, now show what you experts had premised since the beginning of
the thread.

THANKS ALL!!! Hope you understood and put up with this (and upcoming),
inquisitiveness, since I'm back to my digging again on my piles of coins.

Thought I got a genuine find on that coin (but learned some more),though.
Chreers,
J

[billscoins]

Engineers are a tough crowd! and a pain in the...

Please bare-with people like J and myself; we ask pointed questions expecting detailed answers, which can be supported by facts not beliefs. Your experiences are respected and appreciated. I have had to educate my customers as I fulfilled their requirements and know how frustrating that can be (especially when not being financially compensated).

I know the reason that most of the answers you give are short and to the point because I often have to resort to the same kind of reply. Part deviations in high-speed processes are usually caused by a combination of factors (often wear), which are machine dependent and vary with process circumstances. As the speed of the operation increases the importance of all the factors involved increases and shows in the appearance of the parts (or coins in this case). Understanding the process is our goal. We would like you to be able to explain everything you have learned in your 200 years of experience in a few words. I think that might a little difficult…

Thanks again for your input.
Bill

[foundinrolls]

Hi billscoins,

Thanks for your post.

I was thinking about this last night and liking to use analogies, I came up with one that I think fits.

I am involved with parrot rescue and I have many types of parrots sharing my life. I have become quite versed in all things parrot:-) http://www.birdscomefirst.org is my other life:-)

There are about 350 species of parrot and I am familiar with many of them because of my years of being involved with them.

I will often get an email or read a post on one of the several parrot forums that I am a part of. Someone will post a picture and ask what kind of parrot is being pictured. "Is this a picture of a Sun conure?" for example. Knowing most of the species I can say that a picture shows a Nanday conure (Nandayus nenday) and not a sun conure. Simply, the bird is a Nanday conure and experience tells me it is a Nanday conure, as it is easily identifiable by it's characteristics vs. a sun conure. I simply explain the characteristics of each that are known to be true, so that the person asking the question has the pertinent information that was used to determine what the bird is.

After making an Identification of a parrot based upon a picture, I have never been asked to prove (sticking with this analogy) that it was a Nanday conure by disproving it was every other type of parrot that ever existed :-)

When I am being asked about a coin that is a type that I've seen literally a thousand times before it is simply easier to say what it is based upon the experiences of having seen many like them before.

So as in this case, my experience says that this coin was simply a discolored nickel. I gave all the reasoning as to why it was a discolored nickel, it still didn't matter as the person owning it really wanted it to be something else.

My experience said it was not a doubled die as well and my posts as well as many others ably explained why it was not a die variety or an off-metal error.

We gave the reasons and the facts that backed up the reasoning.

I feel like I was placed in a position where I was asked to prove this coin was something, after I identified it correctly, by disproving every other known possibility. That can be an impossible task.

Back to the parrot analogy. If someone doubted that a picture of a Nanday conure was actually a picture of such a bird after it was correctly identified. It would be up to that person do do the research to discover for themselves what the bird was. Ultimately they would see that it was a Nanday conure but they theoretically would have had fun and learned a ton on their journey to seeing what the bird was. It would not have been up to me to prove that it was not a macaw, not a lovebird, not a cockatiel, not a cockatoo, not an African grey etc., in order to rule out every possibility and by the process of elimination prove it was a nanday conure.

It's the same with a coin. It was identified by experience that was backed up with much fact and knowledge. All questions that were valid were answered. The process of elimination exercize is then, to my way of thinking the responsibility of the person who does not believe the identification.

That would be a part of their delving into numismatic research and in the process a world of great information could be opened up to them.

Thanks,
Bill

PS: Thanks Again billscoins....we are trying to do our best in a busy world:-)

[wavysteps]

Bill - You would have loved it over in Hawaii. Ever morning and evening, we had a flock of about 100 to 150 Lilac crown parrots fly over our house, as they went between their roost area and their feeding place. I have also seen blue and gold macaws, assorted parrots, parakeets and finches, all on the loose and doing well. There have been reports of a rather large colony of military macaws (50 to 75 individuals) up in the Kunia range (Oahu), but I never did encounter them.

I do believe that in the next two hundred or so years, many species and sub species of exotic birds will be considered native to the "Sandwich Islands".

On a sad note, we must watch out for (in Hawaii) the brown snake, a semi poisonous serpent that literary wiped all bird species from Guam. It could happen for some have been found already.

BJ

[billscoins]

Your interest in passing on your knowledge is very appreciated. I understand it is often impossible to lead someone through your thought processes (based on a life time of experiences) that go into forming an opinion of a coins characteristics. You are right in your approach of stating your position and then pointing out where we can find the literature to research the subject.
I am a coin collector that just recently acquired the time necessary to study mint errors. I have always wanted to do this, but could not take the time to do it properly. The subject seems so broad that just getting an understanding of the scope of varieties seems to be overwhelming.
One of my observations is that, the subject is being organized and defined by several market makers who are writing books and defining categories. Just trying to find the listings of all the varieties is a little difficult. However, I’m beginning to see where some of this information is accumulated. I am also beginning to get a general understanding of the field and I’m starting to narrow my interest and research into Lincoln cent mint errors ( for the time being). I started with lincolns in a whitman folder 40 years ago and enjoyed seaching rolls then and I'm trying it again now seaching for mint errors.
I hope everyone will continue to show tolerance as people like myself try to understand what is good to collect and what is not.
Thanks, Bill

[foundinrolls]

Hi billscoins,

Thanks Again. Using the word tolerance is scary to me:-) I don't think it's a matter of tolerance. We've all been on the starting point of the graph as far as the learning curve goes:-)

I know that I welcome questions. I think I spend a lot of time on coin and on parrot forums answering questions in great detail:-) With some answers though you can only go so far before the information gets repeated. I once had a professor in college who would teach by giving the facts, the information and then a list of places to go to verify the facts on my own. I think I learned more from him than just about any teacher I ever had.

To me, this is all fun. I get a kick out of it. There are times when I could write a book as an answer to a question and there are times when time won't allow me to do that. In those cases, I try to go back to what that professor taught me. Facts, Information and sources for self study.

So it is not a tolerance thing at all. A time thing maybe...a tolerance thing; I don't feel that:-) :-)

Thanks Again,
Bill

[foundinrolls]

Hi BJ,

There are some wonderful parrots that have been establishing themselves in various places on the Hawaiin Islands. I would love to be there to see them.

On another note, There is also an unfortunate movement, particularly in Maui to trap and euthanize non-indigenous parrots even when they pose no threat to the ecosystem. Coincidentally enough, the birds are a type of conure. Officials in Maui are trying to get the Feds to give them more than $50,000.oo to do the deed.

We just went through that in the last few years in my area of WA with quaker parrots, as they are called.

We and the parrots won out! We made enough noise to get the Govt. to back off.

Anyway, I know this has moved off track from the original post but as a conversation will, so will these threads on occasion:-)

Thanks Again,
Bill

[wavysteps]

Bill and Bill - That is why in CONECA established this forum, we felt that there was an overwhelming need to educate people and stop the flow of money to illicit sales of fraudulent coins and mis attributed error and variety coins.

Hopefully, through our organization and this forum, plus others forums that are equally responsible for answering questions, that we can accomplish this and I am proud to be a part of this effort.

Bill, as far as parrots, conures, macaws and such, I hope that the plan falls through as far as Maui goes. We also have some resident flocks of conures down south of here in Florida and while they are a bit noise, (what parrot isn't, especially cockatoos), they pose no threat to the environment, safety or Florida citrus agriculture. Now, take the boa constrictors, or the anacondas or the cobras or the piranha that are in the wild down here, we do have a problem with those (LOL).

BJ

[Novicetoerr]

2004-D 5c Keelboat Missing Clad and other errors

Hello ALL!

I'm back from sickness and (finally) received replacement of my broken camera.

Thanks all for the knowledge and wisdom that had been shared in this thread. Would like to move on to continue learning and enjoying this hobby.

See you all in another thread. (still digging....)
J