need a book/guide recommendation

[coincrazy]

Hi have the cherrypicker's guide volume 1 &2 but I know there are a lot other known varieties - any other good books I can get? I found an S/S variety that ANACS slabbed for me but its not listed in the book.

[wavysteps]

Try our "links" area in this forum. It lists other sites that deal with errors and varieties. One site, Coppercoins is great if you are into the Lincoln cent.

BJ Neff

[billscoins]

Hi, about six months ago (due to China's becoming our nations preferred supplier of manufactured products), I was provided with the time to devote to studying mint errors.
The first book I read was a old book my Herbert (1974) The first edition of " THE OFFICICIAL GUIDE TO MINT ERRORS" (I just finished reading the 7th edition (2007)). Also I read the book by Spadone "MAJOR VARIETY AND ODDITY GUIDE OF UNITED STATES COINS" recently I read BALSBAUGH " THE MONEYBUCKS HANDBOOK" plus the "Cheerypicker's Guides you mention. I found Alan Herberts books to contain what I think (as an engineer and tool & die maker) to be the best technical description of the process and his last edition to be the most comprehensive overview of the whole subject ( though way to detailed to start with!). The Moneybucks and Cherypickers books I think have good pictures of some varieties, which provide a good introduction to collecting errors.
Many of the experts are involved in writing books from their own prospective and have different assessments of many of the categories in the books among themselves. So beware the blasphemy of questioning some of the expert’s beliefs.
I am also interested in knowing about new sources of literature to read. If you have read some others please tell me what you think of them as a new comer to the flied.
Hope this is helpful,
Bill

[diamond]

Disregard anything you read in Spadone. It's a horrible reference that has misled generations of collectors. It's loaded with counterfeits and altered coins and contains many ridiculous notions on how errors are produced. Herbert's book is pretty good, although it is by no means comprehensive and contains a number of mistakes. Disregard the sections dealing with abrasion doubling -- it's a myth. Weld seam planchets are also probably a fanciful error category. You might also invest in The Error Coin Encyclopedia by Margolis and Weinberg and The Modern Minting Process/Minting Varieties and Errors by James Wiles.

It's always good to question the pronouncements of experts.

[billscoins]

I read all of these books with an open mind. I've seen almost every conceivable (and some which were not) thing happen on the shop floor as a production process evolves. The process in government plants is not always under control. I’ve seen that first hand.
Thank you for the book suggestions,
Bill

[wavysteps]

If I can add to this post. We are in a slight fog as to what is exactly happening with the single squeeze hubbing process. While it is producing doubled dies, I am not to sure if anyone knows exactly how this is happening. In my quest to find how the formation of wavy steps / trails occurs, it was met by a road block from the MINT, basically saying that they were uninterested in how they were formed.

While we were able to understand and study, to a certain extent, the multi-hubbing system since there were examples of this type hubbing outside the MINT, we do not have that option at present; there are no single squeeze hubbing procedures currently in operation outside of MINTS (Canada is included). So, the only information that we have is what the MINT wants us to know and the information garnered by a few in their visits to the MINT floor.

That is what we are up against when trying to figure these things out.

BJ Neff

[billscoins]

This is a normal situation when trying to isolate the cause of a problem in a production facility. Most minor anomalies like the ones we see on coins occur within the production specifications allowed. The process is only corrected when the sampling methods in use discovers a deviation out of tolerance. Since this sampling must occur in intervals of sometimes hours (?) many thousands of progressively distorted coins can be produced (at 150/min & up). The people in charge (at top management level) rarely care about the details of how a deviation occurs. Their concern is only to maintain production levels.
If something reduces production levels a person must be blamed for allowing that to occur. It becomes a game of denial and do want must be done on the shop floor for the shop personnel to maintain production levels. This makes it difficult to isolate the cause because everyone points to someone or something else (under someone else’s control) as the reason for the drop in production levels. Good luck trying to find out anything at the mint. They can always can fall back on “ it’s an industrial secret for national security” as an answer to your inquiry’s or provide incomplete or misleading information.
Bill

[koinpro]

Private Industry Single-Squeeze Hubbing

BJ,
FYI, hubs for my dies (in the rare instances where I feel I may need them) are made via a private company using the single squeeze process (I can use either single or multiple -- sometimes multiple is required). If CONECA approves a hub made from its new die that I just had cut it will be a hub made via the single squeeze process from the die (and then we can make more dies later if needed via single squeeze or multiple). There are at least two private hubbing operations that I know of in the US and probably more but I do not know how many employ single-squeeze at this time (I only use the one). I'd guess both, most or all. The US Mint usually lags behind private industry. The Royal Canadian Mint has been using Single-Squeeze since 1978 and there are most probably private entities using it there too.
Ken Potter

If I can add to this post. We are in a slight fog as to what is exactly happening with the single squeeze hubbing process. While it is producing doubled dies, I am not to sure if anyone knows exactly how this is happening. In my quest to find how the formation of wavy steps / trails occurs, it was met by a road block from the MINT, basically saying that they were uninterested in how they were formed.

While we were able to understand and study, to a certain extent, the multi-hubbing system since there were examples of this type hubbing outside the MINT, we do not have that option at present; there are no single squeeze hubbing procedures currently in operation outside of MINTS (Canada is included). So, the only information that we have is what the MINT wants us to know and the information garnered by a few in their visits to the MINT floor.

That is what we are up against when trying to figure these things out.

BJ Neff

[wavysteps]

Ken - I had searched the web for users of single squeeze hubbing operations and came up blank. I had known that the Canadian Mint was using single squeeze since 1979 and it seems that beside the US Mint, might be the only one to do so. The Royal British Mint, being more traditional, seems to have stayed with the multi-hub processing.

Since you have been to the US Mint, is that system similar in design to the private one that you refereed to?

BJ Neff

[koinpro]

Private Industry Single-Squeeze Hubbing

Hi BJ,
In all honestly, I do not know just exactly how similar one operation is to another as I have not visited the vendor that makes my hubs. Such technology is often supplied by outside vendors who will go to great pains to tweak the process to a point of allowing it to be sold to as many potential users as possible. Once the technology is in operation it may be modified by the vendor for that user. Later the user may tweak it even further. This may or may not be true of the single-squeeze process. I think that what we can expect that certain aspects of the process would remain the same or similar and that lessons may be learned from observing it anywhere. You must also bear in mind that the intricacies of a process may change from one day to the next even within the same operation so that the exact conditions that existed a year or two or ten years ago may not be the same conditions that exist today. Tools may be modified, updated or worn and replaced, etc., changing some conditions. I also do not know just how many foreign countries are using single-squeeze. My bet is that Britain's, Royal Mint is not at traditional as you think -- they are actually quite modern from my understanding and I have not had a doubled die of any sort reported to me on a more modern coin from the RM in many years. My thoughts are that any modern Mint in an advanced nation that is in the business of making an extensive product line for themselves and/or other nations has either switched over to single-squeeze or is in the process of testing it or considering it. The only indications we have that other nations are most probably switching over is a sharp drop in doubled die listing from some nations.
Your search on the Internet for a private vendor or user of the single-squeeze hubbing process coming up empty may due to the use of inadequate search words. The term "single-squeeze" is as best as I can tell an invention that may have come out of the US Mint. An earlier term was "restrained hubbing" or "restrained hobbing." This in itself might be a RCM "invention" and the vendors of the process may well refer to it as something else. Who knows? Also, very few suppliers of these services advertise much as far as I can tell. A search that I ran did not bring up the vendor I use for hubbing. Most users of such services are the Mints themselves and they do not tell their customers how or where they have the dies made (unless in-house) simply because they make a profit on this too. I have made it my business to try to do everything from the ground up: art, engraving, die block supply, heat treat services, hubbing, minting, die repair/changes, etc. -- just so that I know -- but very few (if any) Mints will actually give out this information. I think there is a place in your state and I will let you know of so.
Ken Potter

Ken - I had searched the web for users of single squeeze hubbing operations and came up blank. I had known that the Canadian Mint was using single squeeze since 1979 and it seems that beside the US Mint, might be the only one to do so. The Royal British Mint, being more traditional, seems to have stayed with the multi-hub processing.

Since you have been to the US Mint, is that system similar in design to the private one that you refereed to?

BJ Neff

[wavysteps]

Hi Ken - While at the 2008 FUN show, I had talked to the Representatives of the Royal Canadian Mint concerning a Bahamas one cent doubled die minted in 2004 (see ES March / April, 2008) and it was they that inferred that the British Royal Mint had not yet taken the step toward single squeeze. While the Bahamas one cent coin may have been the product of a single squeeze (very nice wide Class IV), the next coin was definitely not a single squeeze die. The British one pound coin, "The Forth Rail Bridge", again minted in 2004 (same article) is almost assuredly a multi-hubbed doubled die.

There is also a slim possibility that the Franklin mint may have produced the dies for the Bahamas one cent piece.

Ken, I do want to thank you for your added and much valued information concerning this thread (and also to numismatics in general). Our thirst for knowledge has been amply proved by the questions posed on this forum (and others as well) and through people like you, the answers have been given. We may never know exactly what goes on at the MINT and even though we would like to have all the answers, that would take some of the mystery out of the error / variety coins that we are so into.

Thanks again Ken.

BJ Neff

[koinpro]

BJ,
It could also be that Pobjoy Mint strikes the coins of the Bahama's. They strike for many nations. It could also be that RM utilizes more than one technology at the same time to keep up. Hard to say short of a direct contact or tour. All I can say is that no GB coin has come in with a dd on a recent date.
Thanks!
Ken
PS: I'll try to call you later on the CONECA medals. We are getting close.

Hi Ken - While at the 2008 FUN show, I had talked to the Representatives of the Royal Canadian Mint concerning a Bahamas one cent doubled die minted in 2004 (see ES March / April, 2008) and it was they that inferred that the British Royal Mint had not yet taken the step toward single squeeze. While the Bahamas one cent coin may have been the product of a single squeeze (very nice wide Class IV), the next coin was definitely not a single squeeze die. The British one pound coin, "The Forth Rail Bridge", again minted in 2004 (same article) is almost assuredly a multi-hubbed doubled die.

There is also a slim possibility that the Franklin mint may have produced the dies for the Bahamas one cent piece.

Ken, I do want to thank you for your added and much valued information concerning this thread (and also to numismatics in general). Our thirst for knowledge has been amply proved by the questions posed on this forum (and others as well) and through people like you, the answers have been given. We may never know exactly what goes on at the MINT and even though we would like to have all the answers, that would take some of the mystery out of the error / variety coins that we are so into.

Thanks again Ken.

BJ Neff

[billscoins]

New Reading recommendations

Hi everyone,
I just finished reading Dr. Wiles ANA Correspondence course -" The Modern Minting Process. I think he did a good job of summarizing the Error field and I recommend it as a good place to start. However, keep an open mind as you read it. This field is made up of market makers which interpet the market's demand for each type of mint errors as they see it. So, I try to read each author with this point in mind. Things evolue in this hobby, some coins are "hot" today which were not 50 years ago when I started collecting (and vice versa).
Bill

Posted a few months ago-"Hi, about six months ago (due to China's becoming our nations preferred supplier of manufactured products), I was provided with the time to devote to studying mint errors.
The first book I read was a old book my Herbert (1974) The first edition of " THE OFFICICIAL GUIDE TO MINT ERRORS" (I just finished reading the 7th edition (2007)). Also I read the book by Spadone "MAJOR VARIETY AND ODDITY GUIDE OF UNITED STATES COINS" recently I read BALSBAUGH " THE MONEYBUCKS HANDBOOK" plus the "Cheerypicker's Guides you mention. I found Alan Herberts books to contain what I think (as an engineer and tool & die maker) to be the best technical description of the process and his last edition to be the most comprehensive overview of the whole subject ( though way to detailed to start with!). The Moneybucks and Cherypickers books I think have good pictures of some varieties, which provide a good introduction to collecting errors.
Many of the experts are involved in writing books from their own prospective and have different assessments of many of the categories in the books among themselves. So beware the blasphemy of questioning some of the expert’s beliefs.
I am also interested in knowing about new sources of literature to read. If you have read some others please tell me what you think of them as a new comer to the flied.
Hope this is helpful,
Bill"

[koinpro]

Books

Bill,
I have many good books for sale here:

http://koinpro.tripod.com/books.htm

Thanks Mike D. for advising me of this question.
Regards,
Ken Potter


I am also interested in knowing about new sources of literature to read. If you have read some others please tell me what you think of them as a new comer to the flied.
Hope this is helpful,
Bill"[/QUOTE]

[billscoins]

Ken, Tell us the titles and what YOU think of each one.
Thanks, Bill