2011D trail dime

[jcuve]

This Roosevelt Dime trail was by Jean Lee and added to the files today. It was found in a Mint set. Not all that many dimes with trails found - there have to be more out there...

[rascal]

Jason I believe these trail dies are the result of the mint workers re polishing the dies with a straight line buffer and polishing compound . On all of the coins I have examined there is always evidence of heavy straight line die grinding and polishing of the die. Does anyone else agree with me ? If not what is your opinion ? I do know for sure that the trail of the E in e pluribus unum on the best 2005 P detached leg bison nickel was created by polishing away some heavy clash marks . The reason I know this is because I have the coins from this die before and after it was polished. This trail of the E looks about the same as on other coins I have looked at..

[jcuve]

BJ's theory on Trails is HERE

I have pondered it and die polishing just does not seem to cover all that is observed. Documenting clashes, I see polishing rather frequently and the file marks are never uniform enough nor trail off of a number of devices.

For me other issues that go against polishing are: the dies can be brand new with no evidence of clashing, yet have trails. Polishing does not account for wavysteps (which are related and sometimes present going in the same direction as trails). The trails are oddly uniform in their deformity of design elements, can be somewhat blunt and cross into other design elements - all seem incompatible with polishing. My last point is that I have yet to hear of a traildie that was confirmed to have had full-blown trails occur in a die state later than a state noted earlier without trails. I would think by now that one of the many doubled dies would suddenly appear with polish marks and trails in a MDS or LDS which were not present on an EDS.

All of that said, I have noted uniform lines running in a similar direction as the trails and I cannot determine why. They are not file marks from clashes and if the Mint investigated trails, then I would think that would be an initial area to explore and resolved rather easily. I think the relationship is probably not coincidental and may require a somewhat complex answer...

[rascal]

Jason I just got thru reading BJ's story and it looks like he has done a lot of research on this subject trying to find out what caused it. BJ is a smart man but it is going to be about impossible to determine what actually caused these trails to get on a few coin dies.

There may have been many different things that caused the trail dies and may be different types of trail dies. The only one I'm sure about is the ones caused by die grinding and polishing. I know quite a bit about metal and once worked in a steel foundry.

If someone is using a buffing wheel and polishing compound on a surface with with low lying places in it like say a coin die with the incuse letters , the polishing compound will leave the highest places right away and build up in the lower places. then the buffing wheel will keep picking the compound out of the low places and using it to remove the metal closest to and straight away from the low places.

This information may help BJ in his quest to find out the mystery to the trail dies. BJ did a story on two of my coins a while back and one of them was a clashed die coin without a die trail and the other one was from the same die after the clashed die was removed . The coin shows a die trail after the clash marks were ground of the die. another coin that I'm about certain has trail dies from die polishing is the die #4 DDR Minnesota quarter with the straight lines above the trees.

I didn't know anyone was interested in the trail die coins until about two or three months ago and I have always thought the raised up lines coming off the letters on coins was from die polishing.maybe I can learn something new.we never get too old to keep on trying to learn.

I'm not trying to go against what my new friend BJ or anyone else is thinking on the die trails , i'm just giving my opinion on how i'm thinking .

[wavysteps]

I have looked very hard at die polishing and while it does seem like it could be the cause of trail lines, there are two major factors that can be observed which stop it from being so.

The first factor is that trail lines follow a repetitious pattern,, not only in the same year, but over a very long expanse of years. These patterns are so precise that it would be impossible for a human to replicate, not only in the same year, but year after year after year. Even if the die is place into a machine that polishes it, the fact that it is put into the machine by human hands defies the possibility of odds that the same pattern could be replicated time after time. And yet, that it one circumstance that does happen.

Yes, at times I have seen fine lines in the same direction as trail lines that do not emanate from a design element. Are these polishing lines? Or are they lines made from the minute particles that are found in between the die and hub faces tha are causing scratching when there is movement between these two devices? Then there is the situation where there are no other lines associated with the trail lines from the design elements. Also, a study of wavy steps, which is a trail die, shows that the actual die is dented in the area of the steps (which cause them to appear wavy) by the passing over a high point of the hub. There are also other places where the die has been dented by the same action described for wavy steps, most notably, the trail lines from the top of the columns as the pass through the line in the cornice off the Memorial building, causing that line to bow in the direction of the trail line.

I have magnified trail lines up to 300 X and you would be surprised to see that they are not straight at that magnification, nor are they a scrape mark, but in most instances almost knife edge in appearance. Take a look at this page, the third picture down on the left side.

http://traildies.com/id55.html

This will give you some idea of what I am referring to.

While die polishing is an easy answer to the creation of trail dies, I am afraid that it has too many questionable parts to be the cause for this anomaly type.

BJ Neff

[rascal]

I have looked very hard at die polishing and while it does seem like it could be the cause of trail lines, there are two major factors that can be observed which stop it from being so.

The first factor is that trail lines follow a repetitious pattern,, not only in the same year, but over a very long expanse of years. These patterns are so precise that it would be impossible for a human to replicate, not only in the same year, but year after year after year. Even if the die is place into a machine that polishes it, the fact that it is put into the machine by human hands defies the possibility of odds that the same pattern could be replicated time after time. And yet, that it one circumstance that does happen.

Yes, at times I have seen fine lines in the same direction as trail lines that do not emanate from a design element. Are these polishing lines? Or are they lines made from the minute particles that are found in between the die and hub faces tha are causing scratching when there is movement between these two devices? Then there is the situation where there are no other lines associated with the trail lines from the design elements. Also, a study of wavy steps, which is a trail die, shows that the actual die is dented in the area of the steps (which cause them to appear wavy) by the passing over a high point of the hub. There are also other places where the die has been dented by the same action described for wavy steps, most notably, the trail lines from the top of the columns as the pass through the line in the cornice off the Memorial building, causing that line to bow in the direction of the trail line.

I have magnified trail lines up to 300 X and you would be surprised to see that they are not straight at that magnification, nor are they a scrape mark, but in most instances almost knife edge in appearance. Take a look at this page, the third picture down on the left side.

http://traildies.com/id55.html

This will give you some idea of what I am referring to.

While die polishing is an easy answer to the creation of trail dies, I am afraid that it has too many questionable parts to be the cause for this anomaly type.

BJ Neff

BJ you sure have done a lot of research on the trail dies and I know you know more about them that I do. I didn't even think about them until a few months back when I saw someone trying to sell one on Ebay and it got me to looking closer at my coins. ater reading what you wrote I'm about sure that there may be at least three types of trail dies or maybe just what I'm thinking may be trail dies.

after looking at your photos and some of my coins,the raised up lines on my coins that I know for sure were caused by over polishing do look more fuzzy than the trail dies in your photos. maybe we can tell the differences in them by the way they look.

the curved lines in one of your photos looks somewhat like they may be from a warped or bent die. The 1987, 88 and 89 cent coins are really bad for being made with deformed dies. I have been getting rid of them but have about decided to start keeping them.I kept one of these 1989 cents that has a extra 9 to the right of the normal 9 and totally seperated from the other 9.

I sure do hope you are finally able to find out for sure what made the extra lines on our coin dies. you sound like you may be like me when it comes to solving a mystery. I say just stay after a problem until it is solved or we die trying. When I was just a tiny kid my Mom and Dad said I would take things apart and ruin them. Now when some of the family wants something fixed it's always me that has to do it.

I found a really weird cent coin a while back that looks like one in your photos and I believe you said it was struck thru a die cap. this may be the same thing wrong with my coin. on the one I have the date is not totally readable and the word LIBERTY looks to be down in a shallow hole and has what looks like big trail dies coming off each letter of LIBERTY.

Good luck BJ and have fun trying to find those error or variety coins. I have been finding lots of wheat back cents but nothing else worth saving. Troy W.