Foreign Doubled Dies

[russellhome]

I found another Nazi era doubled die coin - a bold DDO and a minor DDR. So far, just about every German DD I've found has come from the Munich (D) mint. It appears they had some pretty sloppy press equipment. This one rivals some of those bold Brazilian DDs - having a strong separation for 3 clear and distinct hubbings.













Note: I collect doubled dies and error coins - and these happen to come from Germany and were minted during NAZI era. With these posts, in no way to I intend to promote the politics and ideology of the Nazi regime. I do understand the history - and when I hold a NAZI coin in my hand it does stir up thoughts and ideas that other foreign coins do not. It reminds me that we all need to beware that government can change drastically for the worse and almost overnight. All U.S. coins are enscribed with the word LIBERTY and I pray that the spirit of this idea is never lost in our own ever-changing government.

[wavysteps]

Ken - I am sure that all of us feel the way that you do and I for one value our freedom that we enjoy in this great nation.

I thank you for making that statement.

BJ Neff

[foundinrolls]

I believe foundinrolls and I have the same 1986 Un Sucre from Ecuador.

I do indeed have one of these and Seeindubl has a great memory:-) or the info is in her ;-) files:-)

Also,
I must apologize for the fact that my picture of the UN SOL D'ORO that was a doubled die that I had in the first post was lost during a server switch. If I can find another copy of the picture on my computer, I'll replace it:-)

Russellhome, I know that I understand completely. The ideology behind the governments that Minted the coins doesn't even enter my mind when I see a great variety:-) Thanks for posting the pics, they are excellent and educational.

Have Fun,
Bill

[Seeindubl]

Hi Foundinrolls, actually I posted my coin after joining and at that point your image was still there. I guess it was removed shortly after. And it would be "her" you are referring to and known on other forums as "daggit". Nice to meet you.
Sandra

[foundinrolls]

Hi Sandra,

Nice to meet you too:-) I adjusted my previous post to reflect who you are:-)

Thanks,
Bill

[wavysteps]

Hi Daggit and welcome to CONECA's forum Sandra.

BJ Neff

[russellhome]

I saw this 2006 2 cent Euro coin on eBay. The seller photos were just OK -- but I thought it looked promising and decided to take a chance. In fact, I'd hoped the coin might turn out to be double struck. But now that I have it in hand - it appears to be a doubled die. Although not as impressive as the 2004 J 5 cent Euro shown earlier in this post, this one isn't too bad either. So what do you think? DD or something else?




In addition to the light doubling on the rays, note the faint doubling of the upper point of the star (to the left of the right-most star).

[wavysteps]

At first it would seem to be double struck, however, since you did not mention that the obverse had any doubling, I sort of ruled that out. Unless, the second strike completely obliterated the first strike on the obverse and left a partial image of the first strike on the reverse. In that case, you may want to check the obverse very carefully to see if there is any evidence of another strike

That may leave a die related anomaly. Looking at the secondary image to the primary image, I just can not make myself think doubled die. To see such a strong secondary image in the word CENT and nothing in EURO just does not fit into the doubled die scenario. Then there is the offset angle between the secondary to primary image, best seen on the word CENT. Again, this does not normally happen on a doubled die. So, that would effectively rule that out also.

More than likely it is a double struck coin, however, it should be examined closely by someone of Mike Diamond's caliber.

BJ Neff

[diamond]

It's certainly perculiar looking. Certain elements, like the rays and stars look like a doubled die. Other elements more closely resemble a double-strike. I'm wondering if it's a counterclash that is affecting the entire surface. Feel free to send it to me for a closer look. -- Mike

[russellhome]

Thanks for weighing in Mike and BJ. I'm glad you found this coin as interesting as I did. The seller photos only showed fuzzy close-ups of 2 areas of the coin - and from what I saw in them, I thought there was a chance it was double struck. But it does not appear to be. There is no trace of doubling on the flip side of the coin. The rims are very odd - with a groove all the way around (like a pulley). But I think this is normal.

The doubling is all very light. It took a lot of work with the lighting angle to get some of it caputured in a photo. As you can tell from the photos, the heaviest area is around the C of cent, and in the other letters of CENT it fades out as you go toward the rim. To me, it does not look squished or flattened out, like on that Malaysian 20 Sen double struck coin I posted.

After seeing the coin, my thought was that it was 1) an aborted light hubbing - with the die possibly being removed, examined, and reinserted with slight rotation before the final hubbing(s) -- or -- 2) Some rough treatment on the part of the mint workers - perhaps slamming the die and hub together hard enough to leave an impression while setting up the press. I would assume a slight convex shape to the blank die would explain why a light hubbing (or clash) would have doubled elements that fade toward the rim.

Anyway - that's my 2 Euro cents on the matter. Mike - I'd be happy to send it in for a professional examination.

[diamond]

I look forward to seeing it. If it is a counterclash, it will be the most extensive example by far on any coin.

[russellhome]

Mike

Exactly what is a counterclash? I did a little searching on the web and found it mentioned in your MD document. But I could not find a definition.

[diamond]

A counterclash occurs in the following sequence:

1. The die strikes a hard piece of metal that may be derived from a broken die, feeder finger, collar, or foreign source.

2. The struck object now has a raised design on it.

3. The struck object shifts position in the striking chamber.

4. The struck object is struck again. This transfers raised design elements on the object back to the die face (generally the field) in the form of incuse, mirror-image design elements.

5. Each coin struck by the die afterward carries raised, normally-oriented design elements in odd locations.

Earlier examples include two 1983 cents, a 1969-S cent, a 2000-P Sacagawea dollar, and the September 1999 Canadian "four faces" quarter.

[russellhome]

The doubling on this coin is odd and it may appear to be going in different directions. I wanted to check to see if the doubling is consistent with a simple on-center rotation. So - with the magic of transparent overlays...



I already sent the coin to Mike D for examination - so the only photo I had to use with the overlay was not perfectly centered over the coin. So the results may be skewed somewhat. But based on what I see, the areas of light doubing on this coin all seem to be consistent with a slight rotation of the design. The word CENT gets closer to the rim from left to right -- and the spread in the doubling increases accordingly.

Had both the regular and doubled elements on this coin been of equal depth - this would have been an awesome doubled die. I look forward to hearing what Mike has to say after his exam.

[diamond]

I just picked up another, seemingly identical specimen. That would establish that this is a die issue and not a striking error.