Does anyone have a picture

[Rhubarb]

of a actual working Die? It does not have to be a certain denomination. The smaller the denomination would help. Also If you have a working die your interested is selling, I would be interested. Any help on this matter would be appreciated. David McLain

[wavysteps]

Try this link for a picture of some clashed dies. Though not of a U.S. coin, which is impossible to get, it does show the clash very well.

http://www.maddieclashes.com/Frequen...Questions.html

BJ Neff

[Rhubarb]

BJ, you are correct. Each clash represents a different stage in which a die is in when it occurs. The softer the die the more they retain the opposite die's Engraving. Heat is the major contributor to the strength of each clash depending on the original hardness of the die. I think each die start's at one point(RC) then migrates down to the original softness. That said, the result is what we have today. David

[diamond]

Rhubarb, your premise that the depth and extent of clash marks is due to variability in die steel hardness is dubious. The strength of a clash is much more likely related to how far into negative territory the minimum die clearance has fallen. Other contributing factors would include ram pressure, how much slack there is in the knuckle joint, how much stretch exists in the press frame, and whether the hammer die is loose.

[Rhubarb]

I would ask what the +\ tolerences are? How are the dies fastned in?(1/4-20 ) Does the Mint print there process? How do we know?

Then you would agree with your circustances and mine, who is to say? It is part of the unknown. I don't discredit your theory's so understanding of mine should be noted. Strength of the die face is a working relationship of Die Material, Die RC, coolant, and pressure depending on the ram speed. Each die goes thru changes depending on these circumstances. Heat is the most contributing factor to the weaking of the dies. Life of a die could be 100 to 1,000,000 perfect strokes of the ram, depending on the circumstances. No factory, including the mint is perfect in there production without the 5 factors I mentioned above. I hope you understand.

Rhubarb, your premise that the depth and extent of clash marks is due to variability in die steel hardness is dubious. The strength of a clash is much more likely related to how far into negative territory the minimum die clearance has fallen. Other contributing factors would include ram pressure, how much slack there is in the knuckle joint, how much stretch exists in the press frame, and whether the hammer die is loose.

[wavysteps]

Of all the factors we do not know, the strength or hardness of the steel used for the hubs and dies is one of the known factors. This is a constant, arrived at by formulating the mixture of carbon to iron. Actually the hardness of the die increases during usage, but ever so slightly. The heat generated by the striking of the planchet would tend to soften the die, while the force of the strike tends to harden the die. Basically, the two would seem to cancel each others effect out. The reason that I lean towards a die becoming more brittle with age is that is when you see die chips, cracks break etc. appear.

As to the tolerances set by the mint for clearance between the dies for each denomination, that is an unknown factor. The Mint is very tight lipped about any information given concerning the specification used when coining. I ran across this problem when inquiring about trail dies and their cause.

So, that leaves us to make educated guess on just what is happening. Die clashes maybe one of the least understood errors that does happen and the more that we look into these anomalies, the more little quirks that we are finding. Example; why is a clash rotated when the strike on the same exact coin is not rotated? Does the hammer die rotate in that small area where the planchet should be?

As I have said before, a die clash is no longer just a die clash, it is a lot more.

BJ Neff

[diamond]

Abnormally soft dies are produced on occasion. The wrong grade of steel, improper preparation of the steel, or improper annealing, tempering, and quenching of the die can create this problem. The result is either a "soft die error" or a "sunken die" error. Such errors can affect the entire die face or just part of it. Soft die errors produce distorted design elements while the sunken die errors show a collapse of the die face. So far none of these errors has been found in association with a clash.

[Rhubarb]

Thank you BJ, Mike for your replies.

BJ, First I would ask what the Mint desires there RC to be? Yes, I am awarethat the mixtures of Iron to Carbon creates a enviroment for metal to be heat treated. Now if we want to talk about different decades this could get very deep. I agree that the hardness increases over use due to pressure placed on the face of the Die. It is like a rail road track, the more the train runs over it the more the molecules constrict due to the constant pressure creating a sheen(so to speek) on the surface of the rails. A die works the same way. The molecules dissapear and creates a void in the metal. (I can explain deeper) A Die has a internal core that will transfer the heat up, thus depending on how the the dies are placed is also a factor. The "Coolant" that is used is "probably" water based. It could be mixed with oil or a "coolant" (this is a factor) The he mint (over the years) probably and I say probably experimented with different types of Metals to a certain RC that a production run was made.

A die as I understand it: It is keyed that fits into a stationary holder and a Ram type holder. Pressure is applied. Something has to give, the Die itself on the face or the weakest point? That would be the key and or keyway. I see it all the time from Cold Roll to 62 RC depending on the torque or pressure. The tolerences are similar+/- 001 to hold the die in place (probably less)

A clash as I have said before, depending on the Metals used over the years have different properties, they all react in differnt ways. I think the voids in the metal create weak spots in the Dies Face (when one occurs) to cause one. Just my opinion but I am only a collector so what do I know?

Mike,

You probably never will find one. The voids are created on the outer part of the die, then the heat transferrs up and or out thru the weakest point.(Or North)

My question is: Did the Mint have stops in place for which the die crossed, production would stop? I would hope that you guy's understand the basics before the answers are known. Happy Holliday's Guy's and Girls for my kids are eagerly awaiting my presence.


David McLain

[Rhubarb]

I would ask if the 1983 LMC is a good example of a "sunken die" ? I am only trying to understand as you are the different types of anomolies that happen. Whether it be a soft die (low RC) or a die that the RC is too high to last for a short time.

Abnormally soft dies are produced on occasion. The wrong grade of steel, improper preparation of the steel, or improper annealing, tempering, and quenching of the die can create this problem. The result is either a "soft die error" or a "sunken die" error. Such errors can affect the entire die face or just part of it. Soft die errors produce distorted design elements while the sunken die errors show a collapse of the die face. So far none of these errors has been found in association with a clash.

[diamond]

Although you didn't provide a photo, I can tell you that die deformation is quite common on dies that strike copper-plated zinc cents, especially the earlier years. It is most often manifested as a raised ring or half ring just inside the design rim. It can show up in the field to the left and right of Lincoln. This wouldn't be a case of abnormally soft dies because it's far too common. Evidently the zinc planchets are tough on the dies, possibly due to variable visco-elastic properties (i.e, hard under rapid compression, soft under slow compression).

[Rhubarb]

I was speaking in general on a soft Die.I was using a 1983 as a example but you clarified that. Visco-elastic is a good example. Metals that don't mix well and or until the right mixture is found would cause the ring next to the rim. Good example. I am more interested in knowing what years the "Soft" Dies were and what the difference "your perception" than a normal Die of a "Standard RC" would produce.

Although you didn't provide a photo, I can tell you that die deformation is quite common on dies that strike copper-plated zinc cents, especially the earlier years. It is most often manifested as a raised ring or half ring just inside the design rim. It can show up in the field to the left and right of Lincoln. This wouldn't be a case of abnormally soft dies because it's far too common. Evidently the zinc planchets are tough on the dies, possibly due to variable visco-elastic properties (i.e, hard under rapid compression, soft under slow compression).

[Rhubarb]

I am still waiting. I know this takes time but patience is nearing the end of the Old 2010 year. Common sence has the answers to my questions.(Maybe BJ)

I was speaking in general on a soft Die.I was using a 1983 as a example but you clarified that. Visco-elastic is a good example. Metals that don't mix well and or until the right mixture is found would cause the ring next to the rim. Good example. I am more interested in knowing what years the "Soft" Dies were and what the difference "your perception" than a normal Die of a "Standard RC" would produce.

[diamond]

Here is a photo of the 1924-S "goiter" cent, an example of a sunken die (die subsidence) error. The middle of the obverse die face collapsed around the area of Lincoln's neck.

die_subsidence_1924S_1c_obv.jpg

die_subsidence_1924S_1c_rev.jpg

[Rhubarb]

That is a nice example. I was more interested in 1960- present. The earlier period was far more ineffient in there heat treatemant abilities. Why was it named goiter? David

Here is a photo of the 1924-S "goiter" cent, an example of a sunken die (die subsidence) error. The middle of the obverse die face collapsed around the area of Lincoln's neck.

[ATTACH]4771[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH]4772[/ATTACH]

[diamond]

A goiter is an enlarged thyroid gland. Since that's in the neck as well, some clever hobbyist called it a goiter cent. Of course, the thyroid is in the front of the neck, not the side. This defect looks more like a distended external jugular vein.