Error / Variety defintion requests

[foundinrolls]

Ok Guys and Gals!

This is it:-) Here's where the Big Guys in the Error Variety field get to help the collecting public by posting their well thought out definitions of the words,

ERROR

DIE ERROR

VARIETY

DIE VARIETY

Please participate and please use examples. There is a debate on this subject going on in another forum. It pertains to the CURRENT concepts and definitions of these terms. I will not give away my positions on these terms as I am going to be as subjective as I can be. (We'll see how far that goes)

Anyway, I know there are many leaders in the field here so I want to pick their brains:-) Please take the time when you are available to be thorough.

Please write your own definitions as you feel they should be I am hoping not to be sent to websites to read others definitions.

After I compare the answers, I would like to ask questions of the participants .

I am very curious to see how some of the dual interest (Variety/Error) folks define the words as well as those that concentrate on one or the other area.

The purpose is to see if we can come up with consistencies to these definitions by discussing the differences in thoughts and philosophies on the terms that mean so much to us:-)

Any questions, just PM me!

Thanks and Have Fun,
Bill O'

[diamond]

This tends to be an interminable and sterile debate, with each participant having their own take on the issue. And that's fine. There's no reason why these overarching categories should have fixed and rigid boundaries. All that matters is that the defects subsumed beneath each umbrella are accurately described and understood. Nevertheless, I'll bite.

Error: Includes any and all defects in the planchet and the strike. Includes defects that occur in the final stages of the strike, such as machine doubling. Also includes rotated die errors.

Die Error: Any defect related to the preparation, installation, and use of a die. Notable exceptions include those listed under Die Variety. Die errors include cuds, other die breaks, die cracks, split dies, die damage (various types), and overzealous die abrasion (die polishing).

Variety and Die Variety: These are the same. These are design flaws related to the preparation of the master hub, master die, working hub, and working die. It includes repunched mintmarks (RPM's), overmintmarks (OMM's), dual mintmarks (DMM's), repunched dates (RPD's), misplaced dates (MPD's), doubled dies (hub doubling), blundered dies (of all types), wrong letter font, wrong letter size, wrong/alternative mintmark size, alternative mintmark style, re-engraved design elements. Most of these defects are present at installation. The last category can include defects or alterations placed on the die after first installation.

You might find this detailed checklist helpful. I update it periodically:

http://hermes.csd.net/~coneca/content/ErrorChecklist.pdf

[Ed varietyhunter]

variety vs error

I try to stick with variety or error.

ERROR
It needs to be something where the same die could also make coins without the error. (markers are often not applicable)
clips, off centers, capped dies, MADs, wrong planchets, incomplete planchets, double strikes, doubled edge lettering, missing edge lettering, missing plating, even strike doubling and MD.
CUDs or big cracks or abrasion doubling might fall into this category but they realy are die states but can be an error if you decide they shouldn't have used such a worn out die.

VARIETY
It needs to be something on the die when the die was made so each coin from that die is the same variety. (markers are applicable)
RPM, OMM, DDO, DDR, RPDs, misplaced mintmarks, wavy steps, trails.

There are some stragglers that break my definitions.
1922 plain or 3 legged buffalo or Kennedy halves with no FG or 1983 cent with no FG are thought of like varieties but in reality they're more like die states since those dies started out ok but in a later state wear caused a change. In some cases there can be more than one die involved (like missing FG) that had similar wear or over polishing. 1922 plains and 3 leg buffs have markers because people track the dies. My OPINION is these are die states not varieties.

Wisconsin quarters with extra leaves because the experts say the gouges were on the die from the start so I can't call it a die state but still it's a gouge (intentional? or not). My OPINION is these are minor errors not varieties but it might not follow my rules since it's possible no coins were made from the same die without it. I'd also accept these as DIE ERRORS.

Added: Mikes post reminded me of mintmark types and LD/SD. Those are another hard to define type because they're like varieties since they're on the die from the start but not specific to a single die (they might be specific to a specific MM punch) and often there are many dies with each type. Maybe these should be "TYPES"?

I'm eager to see experts definitions or reasoning on this too

[foundinrolls]

So far so good!

Please keep in mind that this is not something geared toward debating here. I hope to get some sound responses so that a compilation of these responses might result in a clear understanding of some terms that have changed over time or have been used poorly over the years.

I am hoping to bring clarity to some areas of confusion.

There will always be coins that fall to the outside of anything we may come up with but if we can find common threads among the definitions that can clarify them, I think this could be interesting.

Again, No debates...

Thanks,
Bill

[wavysteps]

Unfortunately, the list has a few errors that pop right out at you. Under dual mint marks it lists 1980 D&S and 1956 D&S. Both have been proven to be not dual mint marks, but other die anomalies. Also missing is the inverted mint mark, which there are 10 (ten) such dies I believe.

BJ Neff

[diamond]

Quite correct, BJ. I forgot to include inverted and tilted mintmarks in the die variety category. I'm still not sure where to put wavy steps and trails. I lean toward die variety since all evidence indicates these anomalies develop during hubbing (perhaps at the tail end of the process).

[wavysteps]

I do agree that trails/wavy steps are a die variety, but like you, I think it is best to wait until there is a surety on just how they are formed. It is much better to delay the definition than to have one in place this is incorrect. We have seen this happen more than once and it tends to leave confusion to which information is correct.

BJ Neff