1982 P Washington Quarter Doubled Rim Cuds

[OneCent]

I came across this 1982 Quarter while roll hunting. I have seen misaligned dies without a dual rim. Is this called something else? There is also a cud from the outer rim to letter but most cuds are from the inner rim to the letter like die breaks. Do you think this can be called a BAR Quarter akin to Dr. Wiles BAR Nickels and worth attributing this anomaly?

[OneCent]

I am actually now seeing these pictures magnified here, that they barely touch the letters at all. Maybe just cuds on the rims?

[OneCent]

More pics

[occnumis2021]

imo, it is part of the odd strike. mis-aligned? tilted? or something.

based on what a couple of these look like it MAY be a precursor to retained or cud state:

http://cuds-on-coins.com/washington-...uds-1932-1999/

kjhgkjh.jpg

[OneCent]

Thanks occnumis2021 the 1982's on cuds-on-coins from Fred Weinberg the 1982P-01 and 02 seem to have that doubled rim also. I appreciate your opinions.

[MintErrors]

The rim is added way before the strike. The dies back then were basically a backwards coin without a rim. So when it struck coins, and it was a good strike, it landed on the flat portion of the planchet, all the way around.

Variety vista added a condition recognized by James Wiles called "rim bars". I personally do not have a craving for those, but, they might be related to these...or not.

[occnumis2021]

The rim is added way before the strike. The dies back then were basically a backwards coin without a rim. So when it struck coins, and it was a good strike, it landed on the flat portion of the planchet, all the way around.

Variety vista added a condition recognized by James Wiles called "rim bars". I personally do not have a craving for those, but, they might be related to these...or not.

those look like die chips to me on the "bar"nickels and i've seen that on other denoms too but not too often. would you call them die chips?

i ask because if they are chip, they can become retained/cud etc.

i've not studied them enough to know if this is the case but out of all the retained/cuds i've seen/owned/studied, bars don't seem to progress into cud since none of the pre-cud states i've seen have these "anomalies."

[MintErrors]

those look like die chips to me on the "bar"nickels and i've seen that on other denoms too but not too often. would you call them die chips?

i ask because if they are chip, they can become retained/cud etc.

i've not studied them enough to know if this is the case but out of all the retained/cuds i've seen/owned/studied, bars don't seem to progress into cud since none of the pre-cud states i've seen have these "anomalies."

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On the original posters coin. There is damage to some of the devices. The letters look partially flattened in some areas and normal height in others. With circulated coins, it's difficult to know exactly what went on. To me, in my opinion, this could easily been a heavily worn die, VLDS and metal flow caused this issue. The rim acted as a stop area for the metal flow.

All it takes is a slightly smaller diameter planchet to interfere with the rim. Whatever it is, I am sure in this condition, it's not going to make anyone rich.

I know alot about coins, but I too am human and I occasionally make mistakes. I do not know all the known types of conditions that are out there, so bear with me at times. I rely on great resources like

https://www.error-ref.com/index-of-entries/

I've seen hundreds of this type issue on Lincoln Cents, and a handful on Jefferson nickels. To me it simply looks like metal flow being squeezed toward the rim. There are literally hundreds of different scenarios that may have affected the minting of this coin. My concern is the uneven looking devices on the OPs coin. Logic carried me down the die wear path and my mind seemed to be OK with that.

[OneCent]

Hi All! Happy Independence Day! I know this isn't a Major error, but is very unique to me. I am sure glad I found it. I looked and have not seen cracks, die breaks or chips per se coming from the letters like the BAR nickels. So I really wouldn't call them anything like that. The other theory about a very late die state is possible because of the flatness on IGWT and inside height of LIBERTY being higher than the upper part, but I do not see any orange peel effect nor mushy die deterioration doubling as the letters of LIBERTY are sharp. I notice on the reverse RTER D is weaker than the rest which seems to mean metal was pushed into rim on obverse BERTY. That picture is on the original post. Thanks for your opinions, they are very much appreciated.

[Dutch-Tigger]

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To me, in my opinion, this could easily been a heavily worn die, VLDS and metal flow caused this issue. The rim acted as a stop area for the metal flow.

Greetings, I was waiting for something like this to come up as I was reading along the thread, after coming across this before I personally concluded that Die Deterioration
is the culprit as you stated the flow of metal from the cavities that are breaking down due to heavily worn Die`s, the flow in the direction of least resistance being towards the rim witch to me then caused a deformation of the rim due to the collision of the metal flow and rim. This is MHO
Great Post !

[OneCent]

Hello Dutch -Tiger! I am glad you had come across something like this and I am convinced that die deterioration is the case here. I can picture the metal flowing and spreading out at the rim as there never was a piece-out chunk of the die to create these cud looking rim defects. So, thinking on how the extra rim was created was that the planchet had an upset rim before being struck by the die in the collar, but the hammer die was misaligned. Am I correct on the process and does this scenario work here? I have another rim question on another coin and will start a new post. Thanks again for your opinion.

[Dutch-Tigger]

Hey OneCent, Thank you for that , what was eluded to during a 2 1/2 page thread by some very intuitive folks was in regards of the rim, a planchet had more likely an upset rim before being struck. The Die being in a LDS-VLDS added insult to the situation with the posible upset rim of the planchet, so when the outflow of metal from the deteriorated device cavities reached the rim in its preformed condition the collision of that metal flow or pressure shoved into the rim a duplicate geometry of each devices top half,
such as you see with the "Y" having a mirror image of the two separate bars of the "Y" and so on for each device claiming a mirror image of its self's top profile. "T" "L I B E" and so on. The belief of what may appear as a gap is possibly the rebound effect after the collision and damage had accrued.
Well now that my mind is pondering this Hypothesis again it can be hard to stop lol so I`ll let it be and ask what you and others may think. A UFO ?
is fascinating to say the least

[OneCent]

Greetings, as on your coin with the anomaly along the rim, it could possibly be from several scenarios,

1. A worn or damaged groove in the upset mill.

2. Improperly machined grooves

3. Use of upsetting equipment intended for a different

denomination (domestic or foreign)

4. Use of upsetting equipment with grooves of an experimental nature

5. Circumferential pre-strike damage that resembles the effects of upsetting

The appearance of abnormal upset is highly variable and suggests many different causes, maybe others can elaborate on this.

It would be great to see the Upsetting Mill in action!

[occnumis2021]

It would be great to see the Upsetting Mill in action!

i'm pretty sure i've seen this in action on youtube. there is a chance i did see it in a vid from the nnp archives (i've watched a fair bit of numis stuff from both) but i'm pretty sure it was from youtube. iirc, it showed a horizontal view, almost level but offset outwards (the camera) showing blanks getting upset.

[OneCent]

Thanks occnumis2021! I will check them out. I hope they are not too upsetting! Lol