Neat Kennedy errors

[eddiespin]

Actually, they get neater as you go along. First, these aren't the same coin, but rather two different coins. Second, they're the same date and mint mark, however, they're both 1998-Ds. Third, look at the similarities in the sizes and shapes of those errors.

Those aren't just plating errors. There's more to this than that. What went on? Thanks.

[NearDateHound]

Hard to tell from the photos but it almost looks like something was struck into the planchets of both of them. Wire from a brush maybe? Is the copper area from the clad layer missing or does that copper go around to/in/on/whatever the edge of them? If it goes into the rim as well I'd put my money on some kind of strike in of two pieces of reddish metal approximately the same size/shape. The similarity but positioning on the two such that it couldn't be from something only having an effect on one die makes me think along those lines. And you're right, those are neat.

*e* On second look it almost looks like the top one was a struck through of some variety and the bottom one a struck in. The unevenness of the copper not showing through the whole area is what's getting me confused on the top one.

[diamond]

These are struck-in rim burrs. It's a form of pre-strike damage. The feeder mechanism produces at least some of these.

[NearDateHound]

That's what I was thinking of given the apparent extension of this to the rims, just wasn't sure of the term for it, mental note made.

[eddiespin]

You guys are fantastic. Mike, I knew you'd nail it. Explain this, though. How is it that my kid and I would find two of these while searching boxes of halves, nearly one year apart from one another? Explain that one (LOL!). The reverse was the second we had found, and I had just remembered I had seen that anomaly, somewhere, before, and, sure enough, we went to our error bag, and, there was the first, almost identical. They've been together in 2X2s, like bookends, ever since.

And, NearDateHound, that copper on both errors does extend to the rims, which are also very slightly dented down, in that area, on both. It's hard to tell whether the copper on the errors extends down the edges, too, as, of course, those edges are primarily bright copper, as well.

Anyway, great going, guys! Thanks! Now at least we have an idea how and at what stage these happened, and what to call them.

PS: When we find our third one, we'll let you know.

[NearDateHound]

Neat that you found them a year apart, keep them together in the bookend arrangement, makes for a cool story. It's possible there was something going on in the manufacturing process when they were minted that was resulting in that same shape repeatedly, maybe a feeder or something out of alignment for a certain amount of time in just the right way, no way to know how long. I guess they were just brothers that eventually found their way back home to each other after a long time apart.

[eddiespin]

Hmmm. So can I reasonably infer from the similarity in the sizes and shapes that these happened near the same time and were due to the same blunder? I'm thinking I've got conjoined twins, here.

[NearDateHound]

From:

http://www.pcgs.com/articles/article...eid=105&type=1

Under "The second type of rim burr" sounds spot on for what you've got, and backs up your idea of it happening at the same time. Great article/explanation by Ken in that one, well worth reading all of it. Being a pre-strike thing, it also explains the identical shape on different sides/locations of them. "Coinjoined twins" brings first to my mind a paired set of brockage strikes, but looks like you've definitely got twins on hand.

[eddiespin]

Thanks for the article. Let me see if I understand a little of this. As blanks, these were punched just fine. That's what Mike meant when he went beyond the punch to the feeder mechanism as the culprit imparting the similar damage to the blanks.

I still don't understand the reason for the copper, though. In other words, these blanks were punched after the strip had been through the plating process, no? Here's the machine at the Denver Mint, where these clads were minted. The impact causing the damage must have stripped the plating off, then, right? That's the only thing I can think of.

[NearDateHound]

On a re-read I spoke wrong. It's the type that occurs during the blanking process when a punch is not uniformly sharp or something similar that's happening here with the repeating size/shape. They were produced after the strip had been plated, it may have been that the burr got folded over in the upset mill, then they were struck, then the extra bit fell out, if those are both incuse. As to the copper it could be the copper part of the burr was retained after striking though the clad/plating fell out. Someone sanity check me on that, it's still pretty early and I may not be fully awake.

[diamond]

The copper is either from the core or from the burr twisting over before it was struck into the coin.

[eddiespin]

Mike, on reconsideration, then, isn't it more plausible these were caused at the punch of the blanks? I'm thinking the same thing NearDateHound is. I'm looking at these two, thinking, they came out like this, at the punch, as blanks; then, by chance, were simply oriented differently (i.e., one "up," one "down") at the moment of the strike. This damage was on the die that punched out these blanks. That's why it's similar, why it repeated. Certainly, had I only one, the inquiries may have led elsewhere. With two, though, and, on different sides of the coin, that makes damage to the blank die the more compelling, I'd think.

I'll tell you what I need to do, I need to find a third one. That'd cinch it.

[diamond]

Rim burrs are common errors and most look exactly like this -- a sharp fang of metal that extends in from the edge at an angle. Blanking burrs are rare and take the form of a low, broad, blunt tongue of metal that extends a short way into the field. Rim burrs are associated with damage to the edge while blanking burrs are not.

[NearDateHound]

*e* Guess Mike posted while I was replying. Leaving my reply, which I guess is inaccurate and I may be misunderstanding the differences in blanking burrs vs rim burrs and how they occur. Thanks for the info Mike.

I think we're all on the same page as far as the initial issue being caused at the point of punching blanks. The resulting burr could have gotten twisted around in the process of transportation between where the blanks were punched and the mint and upset mill. The blanks would have gotten jostled around in transport and could easily have both gotten twisted in such a way as to result in what's showing on the coins. The twist on the blanks could have been very different in angle/degree but gotten flattened out to similar shapes during travel through the upset mill and the striking process itself.

[diamond]

No, rim burrs are not produced during blanking. Rolling folds (blanking burrs) are produced during blanking. The appearance is entirely different. If rim burrs were produced during blanking then the damage to the edge would be smoothed out during upsetting. Instead, damage to the edge is often quite apparent.