U.G 100 dollar possible error(extra letter)?

[coin-crazy]

This could be just a hard hit.I see an extra (U) not Im no pro..

[diamond]

It's not an error. It's a contact mark from the edge of another dollar.

[19Lyds]

The "Key" here is if the letter is raised then it's more than likely the result of a hit with another coin.

If it's incused then its an extra letter which is highly unlikely unless it's accompanied by a whole bunch or "other" extra letters indicating that the coin went through the lettering machine twice.

[rascal]

A few error experts have determined that these extra letters were done at the mint where the coins were used to push the other coins out of the edge lettering machine. This has always been my opinion before anyone else ever came up with this.

A long time ago I did a experiment with the new dollars by trying to press the edges together to see how much force it would take to create a extra letter and never could get it to work. This would take too much of pressure for the coins to just bump into each other in a coin bag to do this.

One thing I still can not figure out about these coins is that the extra letters are highly visable on these coins and with no evidence of the edge of the other coin that bumped into it at all.

on the first few years of the Presidental dollars these extra raised up letters appears to be more common than the later years. On the edges of them there is evidence of circular grind marks . does anyone suspect that the mint workers may have been experimenting with raised edge letters and then later on ground them off the planchets ? A few that I have shows one or two extra letters and bits and pieces of other extra letters.

I have hundreds of these coins with the extra letters. They may never be worth more than a dollar but it don't cost anything to keep them.

[diamond]

Since we already have an explanation that is simple and straightforward, there's no reason to introduce exotic, implausible scenarios.

[19Lyds]

Since we already have an explanation that is simple and straightforward, there's no reason to introduce exotic, implausible scenarios.

I agree Mike. One thing to note is that smacking or pressing two of these coins together does NOT recreate the minting process since the coins are in a softened state during that process.

Additionally, zero examples have been found where the raised letters were NOT reversed. All have been reversed indicating contact with another coins edge. "O's", "I's", "T's", "W's" and stars, of course, do not count since they appear the same whether forward or reversed.

[rascal]

Since we already have an explanation that is simple and straightforward, there's no reason to introduce exotic, implausible scenarios.

Mike I always do my best to be truthful to everyone , I do not think I told any implausible scenarios. Someone just asked about a extra letter on a presidental dollar and you told them it was not a mint error and was from bumping into another coin. I just added some more important information about how the coins may have got bumped or pushed together at the mint . There may be some folks out there that can use this information. I thought this forum was supposed to be on the internet so we can learn more about coins .

[Merlin8971]

When Mike Diamond "decrees" something, there CANNOT be any other explanation.

In my opinion.....the two coins banging together and transferring an indented impression from one coin to the other is an extremely silly explanation. Your original experiment of banging two coins together shows that it is nearly impossible to transfer an indented image. If an indented image COULD be transferred, there would have to be "flats" on either side of the raised image.

BUT, what do I know, I am a novice coin collector with no previous experience in anything.

[rascal]

When Mike Diamond "decrees" something, there CANNOT be any other explanation.

In my opinion.....the two coins banging together and transferring an indented impression from one coin to the other is an extremely silly explanation. Your original experiment of banging two coins together shows that it is nearly impossible to transfer an indented image. If an indented image COULD be transferred, there would have to be "flats" on either side of the raised image.

BUT, what do I know, I am a novice coin collector with no previous experience in anything.

Merlin I have always thought these extra letters on the dollar coins were done at the mint because of many reasons. I have been noticing on the interenet where storys about this are showing up everywhere and even some very knowlegable error coin collectors did one of the storys I read where they believe just like me that this was caused by the coins pushing other coins out of a clogged position in the edge lettering machine.

Anyone with any common knowlege at all should be able to see this because of so many simple clues. If the coins were acdientally doing this to each other then the entire obverse and reverse of the coins would be covered up with extra letters. I'm sure the fields of the coins would be much larger and easier for the edges of other coins to hit. I only have two coins that have one of these extra letters on the field of them .

another great clue for me to this mystery is the simple fact that I own a lot of these extra letter coins from the first two years they were made and not one of them that I can remember shows the letters out of line. If the coins were being damaged by hitting the edges of each other outside of the mint it looks like a few of them would at least show a letter or number laying sideways or somehow out of the normal straight across position.

Another good clue is that the extra letters have slowed way down on the later minted coins , so maybe the mint has partially corrected whatever was wrong.

There is one thing about these that I still can not fighre out. On almost everyone of these extra letter coins is evidence of heavy circular grinding and bits and pieces of other letters can be seen here and there. I'm wondering why did the mint workers need to grind the coins edges?

[diamond]

Merlin I have always thought these extra letters on the dollar coins were done at the mint because of many reasons.

I never said the extra letters were produced outside the Mint. They may well have been produced inside the Mint. But it doesn't matter, as these raised extra letters represent post-production damage. Every error authority agrees that these extra letters are contact marks. There is no other plausible explanation.

It's unfortunate that Rascal and Merlin have taken it upon themselves to spread misinformation to other members of this forum. Nevertheless, I am not going to censor their unfounded speculations.

[rascal]

I never said the extra letters were produced outside the Mint. They may well have been produced inside the Mint. But it doesn't matter, as these raised extra letters represent post-production damage. Every error authority agrees that these extra letters are contact marks. There is no other plausible explanation.

It's unfortunate that Rascal and Merlin have taken it upon themselves to spread misinformation to other members of this forum. Nevertheless, I am not going to censor their unfounded speculations.

Mike it looks to me like you are trying to take it out on me for no reason at all. I have never said that you said the extra letters were produced outside the mint . You are the one that pretty much has said that . Everyone agrees that the extra letters may be contact marks from other coins , even me. I just mentioned my opinion and many other error folks opinion that the extra letters were probably done inside the mint while pushing against the edges of other coins when the edge machine was clogged up. If you want to still think i'm trying to misinform someone you can google EXTRA EDGE LETTER DOLLAR COIN and you can see a few of the write ups done on these coins even including a well know coin experts opinion. If something is done during the minting process then how can we say it is post - mint damage ? Either way these coins may never be worth much and are sure not worth quarreling over.

[diamond]

I never characterized the extra letters as "post-mint damage". I've never use that term because it's usually impossible to distinguish damage that occurred inside the Mint from damage that occurred outside the Mint. That's why I use the term "post-production damage" for edge-lettered dollar coins and "post-strike damage" for all other coins.

[Merlin8971]

Rascal mentioned a key clue in his last post....namely.... the extra letters (or star in another case) are ALL aligned with the other minting lettering. They ARE NOT SKEWED on random angles, up-side-down or in any other position that would indicate "random banging together" of coins. Even if it were possible for the extra letters to be accidentally made it would HAVE TO BE during the time the coin is "soft" which indicates DURING the minting process. In order to "raise" the letter in question the coins would HAVE TO bang together with near "coining pressure" force.

Again, I will reitterate, IF a random banging together of coins caused this, there MUST BE other damage to the coin, namely flattening (in proportion to the height of the raised letter) of the area just above and below the erronious raised letter AND flattening of the areas to the left and right of the raised letter. It is impossible to have a raised letter form WITHOUT the flattening of the surrounding area.

I believe one can say that 99.9999% of contact marks are going to be INDENTED contact marks, not raised contact marks. Even when there is SOME RAISING OF METAL it is ALWAYS accompanied by an ajoining gouge where the raised metal came from.

Another question is, "When does "post mint damage" actually occur?" Is "post mint damage" any damage done AFTER the last minting process has occurred, or does post mint damage occur AFTER the coin leaves the mint. I would assume that "post mint damage" should actually be stated "post minting (process) damage". So that once the last minting operation done to the coin has occurred....then...any damage that occurs is "post minting damage."

One question I had a while back was the occurance of single or double or triple D shaped gouges (that are touching each other) seen on many coins in the quarter denomination. I suspected this was damage made DURING the minting process (possibly ejection fingers gouging the coins). This suspicion was enhanced when I noticed the D shaped gouges were present when I opened US Mint wrapped and issued uncirculated rolls of quarters. By my way of thinking, if the damage was done DURING the minting process (while the coins were soft and before the final minting process was done) then these gouges CANNOT be called "post mint damage." (Kind of like "Cud" versus "Die chip").

This is just my two cents worth (a 1909-S VDB and a 1955 DDO).

[diamond]

I never claimed the contact marks on the edge were due to the random banging together of coins. I suspect that they're transferred as the coins jam up in conveyors and are rolled and squeezed together, edge-to-edge.

Again, "post-mint damage" is not a term I came up with. My sense was that it means damage that occurred outside the Mint. The term "post-strike damage" (PSD) is far more applicable as it encompasses all damage that occurs after the strike. "Post-production damage" is necessary for edge-lettered dollars since the lettering is applied after the strike.

I have no idea what "D-shaped gouges" you're referring to on quarters.

[Merlin8971]

D shaped gouges (or semi-circular divits)

Attached is a photo of the D shaped gouges (or semi-circular divits) that I suspect are mint created, as I stated above.

My mind's eye pictures a coin traveling flatly along a conveyor headed toward a jammed up group of other coins. As the coin hits the last coin in the group, the kenetic energy of the collision plasticizes the metal in the traveling coin to the point that the metal flows into the indented letter of the stationary coin filling the indented cavity and creating a near perfectly shaped raised letter on the traveling coin. My mind's eye is still working out how the remaining metal of the traveling coin DOES NOT plasticize as well creating flattened areas around the raised newly formed letter and bulges (like crumpling fenders in a car collision) behind the raised letter on the fields of the coin and deforming the ajoining star and the indented E on the other side next to the raised letter.

It is NOT impossible to have kenetic energy plasticize metal or other objects. I have seen a quarter sized plastic projectile penetrate an aluminium armor alloy block two and one half feet deep that created a nearly two foot diameter volcanic looking crater in the armor block. Of course the plastic projectile was traveling at just over 20 miles per second. HOWEVER, the plastic projectile disintegrated on impact.