Interesting Liberty on Lincoln

[Jamez]

I just ran across this and have never seen anything like it. Is this damage?

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[wavysteps]

Definitely post strike damage and more than likely, from the appearance, machine doubling due to the coin bouncing back into the retreating die.

BJ Neff

[Jamez]

Thanks BJ.. The reason it caught my eye. 1969-S

[wavysteps]

1969-S are great for that and at times command a premium over their intended value.

BJ Neff

[diamond]

I don't see any post-strike damage, just strong machine doubling.

[wavysteps]

Mike - Isn't machine doubling damage considered happeningt after the strike?

BJ Neff

[diamond]

It occurs after the lowest point of the hammer die is reached. But I wouldn't call it damage after the strike, since the die hasn't retracted more than a fraction of a millimeter, and sometimes not at all. By contrast, post-strike damage (as I define it) would occur well after the strike is completed. Now, others' interpretations may differ from mine, and I accept that.

I consider machine doubling a striking error that occurs at the tail end of the strike. Likewise, I would say that "trails" and "wavy" steps are die errors that occur at the tail end of hubbing (presuming your theory is correct). I would not call them "damage" just as I would not call machine doubling "damage".

Now, James Wiles, Alan Herbert, and Ken Potter will undoubtedly disagree with me on this score, but any mishap that has the potential to create distinctly separate design elements (as sometimes occurs with machine doubling), certainly qualifies as a striking error in my book.

[wavysteps]

Mike - I can understand your valid view point on machine doubling damage. I was just taking the majorities definition and applying it to this anomaly.

Now, talking about hitting below the belt; your analogy concerning trails and wavy steps being viewed as damage since they (at least in my theory) occur post hubbing is well taken. Great come back for I do hope that these anomalies (trails and wavy steps) are not considered just undo damage from the result of single squeeze process.

BJ

[cnladue]

LATE AT NIGHT , WHEN ALL IS STILL ,IS WHEN I SEE ALot OF WAVy STEPS-seriously do you Mr diamond and you Mr Wavy disagree on the Wavy step cause or its acceptance as an error or variety.? has the hypothesis of the metallurgic properties of the newest Lincolns and friction being a cause?and lastly, in this minting process now, is heat an occurrence ?

[diamond]

I find BJ's theory of the formation of wavy steps to be compelling. There is no alternative hypothesis that merits serious consideration, in my opinion.

I don't know where you got the idea that BJ connects wavy steps to properties of the planchet or friction. His theory involves uneven thermal expansion of the working die during retraction of the working hub. Because it is a die defect, it can be considered either a die variety or a die error. The overarching category really doesn't matter.

[cnladue]

i was not inferring that mr wavy had that hypothosis,i was asking a couple of semi dumb questions that had been my own blond hypothosis.mostly wondering if heat is an element or a factor in the minting process now.I am also quite interested in the properties of the metals ,the chemical or electrical platings and such.

[cnladue]

presidential dollars

has any one already addressed the trails all over the washington dollars?

[diamond]

Heat is indeed generated during the strike. I don't know exactly how much is generated, but the coins are said to be quite warm to the touch when they first emerge from the press.

i was not inferring that mr wavy had that hypothosis,i was asking a couple of semi dumb questions that had been my own blond hypothosis.mostly wondering if heat is an element or a factor in the minting process now.I am also quite interested in the properties of the metals ,the chemical or electrical platings and such.

[diamond]

I haven't seen or heard of any trails on Washington dollars.

has any one already addressed the trails all over the washington dollars?

[billscoins]

"It occurs after the lowest point of the hammer die is reached. But I wouldn't call it damage after the strike, since the die hasn't retracted more than a fraction of a millimeter, and sometimes not at all. By contrast, post-strike damage (as I define it) would occur well after the strike is completed. Now, others' interpretations may differ from mine, and I accept that.

I consider machine doubling a striking error that occurs at the tail end of the strike. Likewise, I would say that "trails" and "wavy" steps are die errors that occur at the tail end of hubbing (presuming your theory is correct). I would not call them "damage" just as I would not call machine doubling "damage"."
Diamond

Mike, we may disagree about the manufacturing process, But, I do agree with you about the machine doubling. I think Herbert understands the process, but, caved-in to a consensus opinion in order to bring harmony to the definitions and categories being used.
Bill