hope not dumbest ? ever

[cnladue]

Is there a type of error that is created after the strike?..The word damage in describing varietys and errors ...bugs me.

[JamesWiles]

The term "damage" by numismatic definition means that the anomoly is NOT an error or variety created in the production of the coin.

[diamond]

I have a longstanding disagreement with James on the use of the term "damage" when used in the context of machine doubling. In other words, I expunge the term from "machine doubling damage" and "machine damage doubling". I consider machine doubling a legitimate striking error. Declaring the strike concluded once the lowest portion of the downstroke is reached seems to me completely arbitrary and quite indefensible.

Damage that occurs well after completion of the strike should be called "damage".

There is one type of design transfer that can legitimately be considered "damage" even though it involves contact between coin and die. That is ejection impact doubling. Found on 2000-P and 2000-D Sacagawea dollars and possibly Presidential dollars, it seems to arise when a newly struck coin is propelled or thrust into the retreating hammer die face during ejection.

Coins are sometimes crushed together in mint machinery after being struck. This produces false brockages or "pseudobrockages". This is clearly damage.

[Kuriouskoinkat]

Damaged

I'm not an expert. But if I never hear the word "Damaged" told to me again t won't be soon enough The expunging it has my vote.

[wavysteps]

I can understand the word "damaged" being used for coins altered, either intentionally or unintentionally, outside the mint. Unfortunately, some believe that this term should extend to certain type anomalies that happen in side the MINT and this is where the crux of the problem lies. Where should that fine line be drawn to distinguish which is damage and which is not.

Maybe instead of Machine Damage Doubling, it could be changed to Machine Effected Doubling and acronymed MED.

Just a thought.

BJ Neff

[Kuriouskoinkat]

I had a real weird "Damaged" 1864 and 1864-L indian cent. I seems like they were "damaged " BEFORE striking..My hard drive recently blew-up and I lost EVERYTHING. They re-installed xp with the bare min. And I'm new here and can't seem to post a new thread. I can't seem to insert image here either...I'll try to get a clean enough scan. (scanners and I don't do well together) I will send it to Mr. Diamond e-mail through my outlook Ex. and hope he will forward images to here.. If that o.k. Mr. Diamond ?? .. I would really like to know what caused the damage ???

[diamond]

Planchets can indeed be damaged before the strike, sometimes severely. You can send the photos to me at mdia1@aol.com. And you can call me Mike.

[JamesWiles]

I won't try to resurrect old discussions, but the main reason that the end of the minting process is defined as the end of the strike (that is when the hammer die has completed its downward motion and begins to retreat) is because anything that happends to the coin from this point on could just as easily happen outside the mint as it could inside the mint. There is no way to tell the difference. Just because a coin is damaged inside the mint, does not make it any more collectible than one that is damaged outside the mint. Once the coin leaves the mint, it is impossible to verify where the damage occurred. The one possible exception would be sealed proof and mint sets. But the coin has to remain in the set for it to be verifiable.

[diamond]

Machine doubling cannot be duplicated outside the mint or outside the confines of a functioning press. So I don't see how your rationale applies. I agree that other forms of post-strike mint damage (e.g., crushed, bent, scraped coins) can be duplicated outside the Mint and therefore have no value.

[wavysteps]

James - from what I hear, sealed mint and proof sets from the MINT can come under suspicion since evidence of resealed sets from those facilities have been found. With this happening, if I did see a damaged coin in a mint or proof set, I would not jump to the conclusion that it happened in the MINT.

BJ Neff

[diamond]

Even a damaged coin inside a mint set or proof set has limited value. For example, coins that are damaged by the plastic sealer in mint sets are worth less than undamaged coins.

[cnladue]

i will concede to call this particular one a bit damaged

[Kuriouskoinkat]

Sharp clean Image

GREAT SHOT.. Perfect image cnladue

[diamond]

No, this isn't damaged. The zinc core was exposed by the strike, as tensile forces caused the thin copper plating to split.

[cnladue]

what it makes me wonder though is how does a coin like this one make it out of the mint into circulation? i was trying to be funny with this pic but i really do want to know how ?