1980LMC- Post-Mint Damage?/ any valid doubling?

[chuckster 125]

Mr Diamond/ BJ:

Found this 1980 Cent today while roll searching from my local bank
What caused this finish?

Is this post-mint acid damage and even if it is- is there some doubling going on by the last 2 columns of the lincoln memorial and around the letters TES in states?

Thanks for the help!

[wavysteps]

This is a serve case of the "orange peel" affect. Believe it or not, it is a natural function of die aging. As the die ages, the metal flow of the planchet, strips away the surface atoms of the die, causing lines, groves, ridges to form on the die. A similar example is the ripples formed by water flow over a stream bed. or the washboard effect on an old country road.

In this case, the die is probably in a very late die state (VLDS) and is just about at the end of its life.

BJ Neff

[chuckster 125]

Here are 2 more pictures- Please look at the A& M In America- looks like 2 or 3 layers.

[chuckster 125]

This is a serve case of the "orange peel" affect. Believe it or not, it is a natural function of die aging. As the die ages, the metal flow of the planchet, strips away the surface atoms of the die, causing lines, groves, ridges to form on the die. A similar example is the ripples formed by water flow over a stream bed. or the washboard effect on an old country road.

In this case, the die is probably in a very late die state (VLDS) and is just about at the end of its life.

BJ Neff

If I am understanding you correctly BJ- this is not POST-MINT damage caused by some acid or chemical someone put on the coin and this is a mint error?


If this was caused by the mint (VLDS) is there any valid doubling on the coin- I keep seeing what seems to be doubling in the last 2 columns on the reverse and especially around the letters in States and the AM in America on the reverse.


Last but not least- is this a valid coin to keep or is it junk?

*It really has a very nice shine to it, even with the ripples etc on it.*

Thanks again BJ.

[wavysteps]

It is not a MINT error, but a natural die progression. The doubling that you are seeing is call die deterioration doubling.

Basically, the coin is like a human, a very old human, who is all wrinkled up.

If all dies were used to this extent, we would see this affect often. however, most die are pulled before they reach this stage.

I would keep it for it is not often that you see a die that deteriorated and it is a conversation piece.

BJ Neff

[chuckster 125]

It is not a MINT error, but a natural die progression. The doubling that you are seeing is call die deterioration doubling.

Basically, the coin is like a human, a very old human, who is all wrinkled up.

If all dies were used to this extent, we would see this affect often. however, most die are pulled before they reach this stage.

I would keep it for it is not often that you see a die that deteriorated and it is a conversation piece.

BJ Neff

Thanks again BJ!

Definitely hold on to it.

[diamond]

I have to disagree with BJ. This coin was modified outside the Mint. They're often referred to as "wire brush jobs" or "rippled surfaces". Exactly how the texture is produced is unclear, but some sort of rotating brush is probably employed to generate heat and friction. You see these from time to time on eBay and I have one or two knocking around in my reference collection of fakes.

[chuckster 125]

I have to disagree with BJ. This coin was modified outside the Mint. They're often referred to as "wire brush jobs" or "rippled surfaces". Exactly how the texture is produced is unclear, but some sort of rotating brush is probably employed to generate heat and friction. You see these from time to time on eBay and I have one or two knocking around in my reference collection of fakes.

Mr Diamond:

I now have three differences of opinion of what caused this.


1.) Post-mint Acid/Chemical damage (Coin Community forum Consensus)
2.) Orange peel effect- (VLDS)Valid coin BJ Neff
3. Wire Brush/Heat Friction- Fake coin Mr. Diamond

Where do I go from here? and I 'm not stepping on any one's toes- who is correct on this.

Thanks again for the help.

[diamond]

Try weighing it. If it was acid damage, it should be significantly underweight. My guess is that its weight is normal or close to normal. I'm not aware of any acid damage that produces this particular texture. Die flow lines are usually radial and tend to be strongest toward the periphery. That's not the case here. The extremely even coverage on both faces suggests a mechanical cause.

As far as determining who's right, there is no supreme court that issues final opinions.

[chuckster 125]

Try weighing it. If it was acid damage, it should be significantly underweight. My guess is that its weight is normal or close to normal. I'm not aware of any acid damage that produces this particular texture. Die flow lines are usually radial and tend to be strongest toward the periphery. That's not the case here. The extremely even coverage on both faces suggests a mechanical cause.

As far as determining who's right, there is no supreme court that issues final opinions.

NO Supreme Court- then how am I to determine the final decision on this

Only kidding- its just a coin-whether it is legit or not isn't making me richer or poorer any time soon!


Thanks again Mr Diamond for looking at this for me.

[wavysteps]

Mike - I generally agree with you on your analysis of coins, however, this time is different.

While this is an odd pattern, I am sure that it was not caused by an type of chemical treatment. I have seen the ripple affect being caused by the application of heat (blow torch), however, there are inconsistencies that would rule this out also.

Knowing that metal can not be added to a planchet once struck, it is very hard for me to imagine how the "extra" columns were produced in bays # 10, 11 and outside of the 12th column, unless by die deterioration doubling.

While the scalloped or "orange peel" look can be accomplished (at least I believe it can be) by a high speed rotating wire brush, I do not believe it would duplicate these columns in the pattern that they are in. There are also other indication of extreme die deterioration doubling, mostly on the peripheral lettering.

If this is affect was not caused by die deterioration, I am at a lose to describe how this could have been created.

BJ Neff

[diamond]

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I maintain that die deterioration will not create such a severe and uniform effect and will certainly not generate ripples with a North-South orientation.

[BIM Mania]

While I've not seen this surface effect on Lincoln cents before, I have seen on some state quarters I pulled from a Mint Bag. (Demon Quarters).

I'll have to find it (them), but I don't think the surface pattern, or rippling was oriented in any particular direction. Came right from the Mint in this condition.

Seems I remember 'die fatigue' was the consensus back then, with an 'orange peel' being the analogy many like to use.

Perhaps I am missing something here.

Jeff

[diamond]

I have seen some state quarters with severe die fatigue in which die flow lines are roughly concentric, rather than radial. But they still don't resemble this 1980 cent at all.

[BIM Mania]

Your right,.....just found pic's I took of demon quarters. The rippling, or flow is indeed radial as you say.

It is strange how the metal flow follows the design details creating waves.