1983D Trails

[Steven]

Another of Those Trail Dies.

Steven

clickable photo

[wavysteps]

That is 1983D-1DE0-001T, first discovered by Bill Slaughter over in Arkansas. Right part of the country for your find Steven.

Congratulations on the find.

BJ Neff

[Steven]

Thanks BJ,
I posted over on LCR also. I went over there and quoted your responce. Thanks.

Any chance of a new new list of your Trails and Wavysteps listings coming out soon. The one you have online now has helped a lot.

Steven

[wavysteps]

By the end of this year, I do hope to have a site dedicated to just trails and wavy steps dies. I had a small set back with an uncooperative hard drive, however, that problem has been solved.

The files are now in the 600 numbers thanks to a person named Patrick Gaugham who just submitted 11 new trail dies. With help, I think that we will see numbers approaching 700 different dies by the end of this year, with the continued possibility of over a 1000 dies in a few years.

BJ Neff

[Novicetoerr]

By the end of this year, I do hope to have a site dedicated to just trails and wavy steps dies. I had a small set back with an uncooperative hard drive, however, that problem has been solved.

The files are now in the 600 numbers thanks to a person named Patrick Gaugham who just submitted 11 new trail dies. With help, I think that we will see numbers approaching 700 different dies by the end of this year, with the continued possibility of over a 1000 dies in a few years.

BJ Neff

BJ,

Can you provide a brief definition of trail die? Which elements can trail?
To what potential directions?

Thanks,
J

[wavysteps]

Simple stated, trails are a continuation of a design element and not a duplication of a design element. They are formed at the end of hubbing when the face of the die drags across the hub face, causing the high points of the hub to "dig into" the die face. This action causes troughs to be formed on the die face with a direction that is opposite of the die movement across the hub.

We have seen "trails" (which also include wavy steps) on the Lincoln cent, the Jefferson nickel, the Roosevelt dime, some of the state quarters, the Sacagawea dollar coin and the Washington dollar coin. Also, "trails" can be seen on the obverse and reverse dies.

As far as direction; at first, it was thought that "trails" (which include wavy steps) were confined to just certain areas of direction. It has since been established that directions can happen in all 360 degrees. However, some directions are more frequent than others (180, 190, 300 and 330 degrees seem to occur more often than other directions).

While not all is known concerning "trail" dies, there is a growing confidence that just how these anomalies are formed is a known factor. While some still do believe that this is a doubled die, others, like myself feel that this is an entirely different variety type.

BJ Neff

[Steven]

BJ,
I found this one searching yesterday and had a hard time identifying it until I took photos and then that made it a lot easier because I did not see the trails until after the photos were being taken. I then matched up a couple markers and it looks to me to be an EDS of the 2006P-1DO-016, CDDO-027, WDDO-033. This one does not have the die crack in the hair as shown on the MDS. Just thought I would throw this one in this thread since the 83D kinda died out on me........

[Novicetoerr]

1983D Tails

BJ,

Many thanks for the info. My "cheap" camera broke again
and can't take photos...

- From your description of the "trails", I'd assume they'll
look like "comet or rocket tails" that may have the
following possible variations -> dependending on
where the die and the hub scrape each other:
- shape
- length
- width
- depth (thickness)
- direction (in reference to an upright design element
position)
- locations in the design (referencing to an upright
position) will be most possibly at end, side or
combo of both). Not confined in any location of the
coin but most will possibly be near the rim of the coin.

- With the above premises, I have attached sketches
(photos later) of some "trails" on some of my finds.

- If you confirm they are (or potential) trails, I'll give/mail
to you 2-3 coins that display those tails tomorrow.



Let me know.
J

[wavysteps]

Steven - that is a nice find and the only trail die that I know of that has a doubled die on the same design element. This particular die is the anathema for those who believe that trails (wavy steps) are doubled dies. It is next to impossible for die movement, against the hub, to happen in two different directions during the same hubbing. Of course, one could contend that this was a non-continuous hubbing, however, that would make this die highly unusual and a re-evaluation of what was continuous and non-continuous in the single squeeze hubbing process would be needed.

Anyway, congratulations on finding this die Steven.

BJ Neff

[wavysteps]

Trails are peculiar and somewhat predictable.

1. Trails (wavy steps) will never cover a full die surface. This has to do with the bulging of the die surface from thermal energy at the end of hubbing.

2. Trails can appear in any location on a die. Center design (Memorial steps), mid-center (LIBERTY) or near the rim (UNITED STATES OF AMERICA).

3. Sharp corners, sharp edges and sharp points on the hub are what cause the lines to be gouged into the surface of the working die.

4. The best analogy to think of trails is a series of die gouges that are formed at the end of hubbing. Their initial strength is dependent on the pressure on the hub and the amount of movement in the die

BJ Neff

[Novicetoerr]

1983D Trails

I have additional comment / clarification...

1. Re: Trail locations and affected design elements -
Though mentioned predictable, it's not limited to the 3 locations mentioned, but could also be somewhere else
and a combination, too.

2. Re: Trail category ... Just my thoughts...

I agree with BJ, not to categorize as DD:

- Though logical (being a "crude" double of a design
element), it negates the true meaning (and intended
perception) of a true doubled die.

- Further, it'll defeat the purpose why we use
categories-> for ease of identification and/or
classification of variety by users. Mixing it with
existing DD CATs further makes them more
incomprehensible especifically to those new to this
hobby.

- Would favor "another" variety category that can be
"further" sub-categorized (per the location, affected
designs, directions and potential variety of causes).

3. Outside of this thread, but relative to categorizing:
In reference to the mentioned category below,
(2006P-1DO-016, CDDO-027, WDDO-033) --> Looks
like a "secret code" to me that I may need a handy
pocket code breaker manual to decipher.

Would recommend major items to be "abbreviated"
as a minimum: Date, denomination, variety type,
obverse & reverse, include the affected design element
(since there only a handful), all of which will provide
the reader of immediate understanding of the variety
type and error location. Rest of the sub-CATS can
then be numerically/alphabetically coded.


Thanks,
J

[mustbebob]

J,
I read your comments and although I know where you are coming from, I must state a few things that you may or may not be aware of. A lot of the things you made mention of already exist, but to sub categorize these would to me, be even more confusing. You made mention of having difficulty with the numbering systems some of us use for documenting varieties. I for one think they are pretty easy to decipher if you know what it is you are looking for. For Crawford...it is simply the date (IE 2004) Crawfords designator (C)followed by the variety type (DDO) and the number of the variety for that year (002). Hence 2004 CDDO-002. The same holds true for Wexler's numbers (2004 WDDO-002), and although coppercoins is a bit different..it tells you what you need to know IE 2004P (date and mint )-1 (denomination) DO (variety type) -002 Number for that year....thus
2004P-1DO-002. I do believe all clubs have the identification numbers explained and so you can understand them.
On the other hand CONECA also lists the class designation in their numbering system. Each club uses what it thinks will be unique and easy. All it takes is a short time to familiarize yourself with the system. The rest is gravy!
Your recommendation uses all these.

[quote] Would recommend major items to be "abbreviated"
as a minimum: Date, denomination, variety type,
obverse & reverse, include the affected design element
(since there only a handful), all of which will provide
the reader of immediate understanding of the variety
type and error location. Rest of the sub-CATS can
then be numerically/alphabetically coded.]

...plus you would like to see the design element affected and its location? In addition, you would like sub categories? This sure seems like a lot to do, and in some cases would make the die number extremely long and more confusing.

Maybe I am just missing what you are meaning, so could you give an example of how you would list a coin if you were a new club and wanted to number your coins. Lets say you have a 1964 P Lincoln cent with class 2 distorted hub doubling on the reverse that affected ALL of the outer design elements, as well as the motto. Show me how you would list it in a way that would enable you to 'immediately understand the variety and error location' per your recommendation above.
Please don't think I am criticizing anything here. I am all for making the collector better able to track and understand their coins, and I am always willing to listen to suggestions to improve things. Remember...A lot of these things have been out here for a long while. I certainly enjoy reading about other's thoughts about things, and this case is no different....OK?

[Steven]

I have additional comment / clarification...

1. Re: Trail locations and affected design elements -
Though mentioned predictable, it's not limited to the 3 locations mentioned, but could also be somewhere else
and a combination, too.

2. Re: Trail category ... Just my thoughts...

I agree with BJ, not to categorize as DD:

- Though logical (being a "crude" double of a design
element), it negates the true meaning (and intended
perception) of a true doubled die.

- Further, it'll defeat the purpose why we use
categories-> for ease of identification and/or
classification of variety by users. Mixing it with
existing DD CATs further makes them more
incomprehensible especifically to those new to this
hobby.

- Would favor "another" variety category that can be
"further" sub-categorized (per the location, affected
designs, directions and potential variety of causes).

3. Outside of this thread, but relative to categorizing:
In reference to the mentioned category below,
(2006P-1DO-016, CDDO-027, WDDO-033) --> Looks
like a "secret code" to me that I may need a handy
pocket code breaker manual to decipher.

Would recommend major items to be "abbreviated"
as a minimum: Date, denomination, variety type,
obverse & reverse, include the affected design element
(since there only a handful), all of which will provide
the reader of immediate understanding of the variety
type and error location. Rest of the sub-CATS can
then be numerically/alphabetically coded.


Thanks,
J

I do not believe the creators of the die listings I mentioned would reference them as "secret codes". The "handy pocket code breaker manual" could be refered to as the books and articles written written on the subject by these authors/experts in the field. These experts have created online references, web sites as well being very active with forum participation and are very well respected by many.


Steven

[wavysteps]

The "code" that I created for trails and wavy steps was a necessity when you start cataloging your finds.

Simple put; 2000P-1DEO or DER-001WS or T or WST. The date is first, followed by the mint, followed by the denomination (1, 5, 10, 25, 50 and 100) followed by design extension obverse or design extension reverse, followed by the die number, followed by wavy step (WS) or trail (T) or a combination of both (WST)

This numbering system tells me what I am looking at in a glance.

BJ Neff