Is notching not always a variety?

[Conan62]

Good afternoon, I’ve only been collecting coins for less than years, so I still have a lot to learn. Up till now, if I found a coin that I felt was a variety and had at least one experienced set of eyes look at it. I sent it in for certification and it came back as I expected.I used to write in the variety, but this time I didn’t. I only selected variety attribution on all coins and in the bottom under their info I put four 25C Washington quarters FS – 803. Long story short they came back from PCGS graded with no varieties. One coin even came back with “damaged brush marks”. I would be the first to admit trying to clean a coin, but these coins came straight out of a bank roll from 1964 untouched and uncirculated. Customer service basically said that means that whoever examine the coin did not find anything that pointed them to a variety. I paid for the variety attribution. The customer service representative clearly said you can send them back in, but you’ll have to pay again.
Take a look at the pictures. They are clearly notching on top and bottom on “United States” and most of “quarter dollar”Also “e pluribus unum”, but that’s hard to see in the pictures. All four coins were the same 1964 Washington 25C. I have other certified FS803 coins that are exactly the sam. What did I do wrong? Or I’m not am I not understanding the certification variety attribution process.?

[MintErrors]

In my opinion, the doubled die notching, or split serifs have to be in the same direction. The working die that had the doubling may have the same markers or pick up points, if they are at the same die stage, or age of the die. See if you can spot some die scratches, gouges, cracks or other things that are found on the same spot and look pretty close to the same. That may help proves they are from the same working die.

For the attributor, they look at the documented examples and match up the doubling in that exact area. The working dies that have doubling impressed onto the coin is impressed into that steel working die, so the location of the doubling does not move. It's important to read the description of where the documented examples have the doubling. The doubled die should have both impressions of the doubling at the same height. If there is notching, the letters should be slightly thicker as well.

If there is machine damage on the coin and that damage is lower and shelf like, the machine doubling/ejection doubling aka worthless doubling can give the appearance of split serifs/nothing, but it's typically tot at the tops of the letters/numbers or other devices. Machine damage can show some letters as thinner, since some material was removed since the coin suffered from improper ejection, or some other condition was introduced during the strike to cause the coin oldies to move. If the move even mi utely, it can induce machine damage.

The biggest takeaway from my reply is know exactly where to look for the doubled die and ensure they look like the documted examples online. Sending coins in for certification is quite costly both in money and time. It's all about return on investment.

I have decided to not send in any of my finds to a third party grading service. I will purchase coins from reputable places and consider the cost and time it took from them to be pre-slabbed. For varities, I just won't slab them if I find them, unless I have enough of one type. Then, I can slab one as the integrity example and the customer can compare the certified example to the raw ones.

At one TPG, they just received a few graders, but the coins to be slabbed with a top 100 or FS number variety still costs about 24 bucks per coin. Plus, some of the people who I know sent in coins 4 months or more ago and have not received their coins back.

Also, some third party grading service may not recognize a particular variety or error. It becomes a jumbled mess. I would imagine if it is a FS documented example they should have be able to identify/attribute that.

It's tough for people who are on the other side of the fence to question the thought process of a TPGs finding about a coin. We are not privy to the communication or process behind the scenes. We can look at the photos provided but unless the coin matches up perfectly with a documted FS example, all we can do as fellow collects is offer an opinion.

[Conan62]

Thanks Gary. I’m going to compare the coins that I sent in to coins I already had Fsbo-803 certified and see if the notching is in the same direction. The letters are definitely thicker. I’m pretty convinced It’s the same die. It is frustrating that we have no recourse when we receive coins back. It’s pretty much like ordering a service and having to pay for it no matter how accurate or complete. No refund no returns no appeals. I’m starting to believe I need to just leave the big TPG and go with one of the smaller companies in the future. You gave me a lot of good ideas. I appreciate your reply and the time you took to write it.

[Conan62]

A quick update.
again. All four coins came out of a 1964 bank roll. I examined two of the coins in detail. One was had come back MS 64 without a variety and the other one came back “genuine UNC detail wheel mark” No variety. The Notching on both coins are exactly the same and match up to a coin I had sent in to the same company months ago and it came MS64 FS-803.
As far as the coin deemed “damaged” I do not see anything on the coin other than a scratch on the verse that looks like it came from the mint in a circular motion. I can guarantee these coins were not cleaned. The only contact I’ve had with them is possibly putting them in and out of coin tubes. FS-803 is a pretty rare variety for the 1964P Washington Quarter.
I was under the impression if it’s a doubled die coin it should come back with some type of variety.
I’m going to crack them out of these slabs. Without a variety the coins are basically worth the silver value.
Either way this is strictly for educational basis if anyone else has gone through the same thing it’s like putting 70 bucks in a slot machine. You may get something back you may not either way you get what you get.

[MintErrors]

Conan62

In my opinion, if the coin with the wheel mark is close to the rim and is almost halo looking, and travels around the coin its probably from a coin counter machine damage.

The cheapest still by far is ANACS. they should average close to 25+ bucks per coin if there are enough coins to take advantage of one of their "specials".
You can also sign up to be an "insider" which gives an additional verification or research fee discount.

BUT I am not pleased with their turn around time, which is currently near 4 months.


I am not saying that they will certify these four coins as FS-803's its just a potential alternative in the future.

Like always one has to assume the risk, time and cost associated with this sort of thing.

[eaxtellcoin]

Hello Conan62,
I see the Double Die also and I tried to find a match on VV. Some of those varieties "only a few" have the strongest PUP on IGWT also but, in this case - You Need a Defineable Marker - Go all the way down to the bottom of each state of Dr. Wiles's photo's ""The FS-803"" and see if any of those markers are still present on the coin(s). A TPG on a variety will grade with caution on varieties that may be very hard to tell one from another. What i'm getting at: If this were a ""NEW"" die state of FS-803, then Dr. Wiles or Coneca or Wexler would need to post photo's of a marker that an attributer can find on the coin, or with a letter. Trust me - I've been around and around the bush with 1936-P DDO-002 on the Buffalo Nickels. ALOT will look exactly the same, but without something ""A Marker"" or a ""Letter"" they will not holder as the variety wanted/sent in.
I hope this helps..
Eric