Help. Trying to understand the attribution process.

[lyme3m]

Hello! New member here. Journeyman Toolmaker and ME. Founded a contract manufacturing company a little over a decade ago. I got into collecting coins from spotting errors in coins thrifting. My favorite coins to collect are germanic states wildman coins. Anything else I regard as a treasures headed to auction. I especially enjoy finding new discoveries.

I thought I'd double up my greeting with my first question. I have a 2003-S 5C that has an incuse 9 between 'FIVE CENTS' on the reverse.

2003-s 5c reverse 9er.jpg

I know, it's incuse and the first thought is surely that it's struck through foreign material. You can see though that under magnification the feature has draft and die marks from polishing that transition from the fields and onto the feature. The image below has a gradient applied to enhance contrast with less distortion than actually increasing contrast.

2003-s 5c reverse_16x_c red.jpg

The feature is proud in the die. The die polishing, using a foam head and I believe diamond polish, leaves marks where die steel burrs are picked up and dragged across the die steel. The result of polishing on and around this feature is as you would expect. Smoother around the outside versus the inside of the feature.

You can also take a 9 traditionally used by the US mint and overlay it onto an image of the 9 on this coin and they align.

I have no clear idea why the mint would apply this outside an aspect of QC/QA for dies that need approval prior to release for production. This feature is very easy to scrape off the die and just as easy to dress the field.

I did send this coin for grading and an attribution to PCGS. It's been a terrible experience. Surely I could have taken a different route before PCGS but its the route I took. Specifically to have a third party crack it open to eliminate any suspicions of tampering.

They changed my order from Regular - Mint Error, to Regular without asking me. They changed it back when I noticed and asked them to.

I sent this coin still residing in a proof set along with the quarter set for grading for varieties, mint errors and attributions. Coincidentally all the other coins in this set have obverse and reverse doubling, albeit a couple are minor. Considering the 9 on the nickel, I call the 5to9'er, I wanted them to attribute all the DDO's/DDR's in the set as its soo unusual.

There was significant dialogue with PCGS. They mentioned a number of times they removed mint errors because it would cost a fortune to grade. Every single time I clarified that the money wasn't an issue and stressed my concern about how cavalier they were being with my order.

They confirmed they would attribute new discoveries.

The coins arrived back today all of them only straight graded. When I called they mentioned again that it would have cost a fortune to grade them that way. Ugh

The CSR also mentioned that one of the graders had been there 40 years and he said there were no mint errors and that makes zero sense to me.

I provided almost 300 images of these coins detailing areas of interest. (Please let me know if I can post a dropbox link here to the sets)

I am completely lost with this process. Do they not have access to key people at the US mint to ask questions for discoveries like this? How can you not see the 9 or this doubling?

2003-s $1 reverse_x_b.jpg

What am I doing wrong here? Thank you

Charlie

EDIT - I see that Coneca does attributions here. While I've spent a lot of time looking at coins it is obvious to me that I do not understand the nuance of the hobby of trying to bring coins to market, get attributed or graded. Thanks again

[Kloccwork419]

The “9” shape is just a minor strike through. The doubling you show in this picture is MD- Machine Doubling. Not a doubled die. They saved you money. Attributions here are still in the workings as far as I know.

[Kloccwork419]

Send it back to PCGS. Good luck

[mustbebob]

First of all, I am sorry you appear to be having issues with PCGS. However, that is an issue between you and them, and we respectfully can not and will not become involved. I am concerned however about how much you expect from them, and since you stated you don't quite understand the nuances of the hobby, how much they can actually do for you. The fact that money is no object won't sway them one way or another.
It seems to me that you might think they sit down with each and every coin with scopes, open books, and unlimited references and resources. That is not the way it is. Do you realize how much time is spent on each coin at PCGS? Literally seconds. In addition, they do not use microscopes either...only a 10X loupe. You can not expect them to see what you have shown us here. If the notching or doubling is not visible at 10X magnification, they don't see it. They also deal with thousands of coins daily. They will not confer with the US mint on anything unless it is a matter of authenticity. With that being said, you will not be able to post 300 images of your coin(s) here. We attribute varieties, and examine and identify errors. There is a difference. All of our services are explained under the CONECA services tab. Please read them if you haven't already done so. If you are looking for a letter to include with your submission saying that CONECA examined this coin and finds that it is a 'insert description here', then we can do that. Once we have done that for you, you must then deal with these services directly. We can not do so on your behalf.
Your nickel shows a struck through. as a machinist or someone familiar with machines, then you realize stuff can get into the striking chamber.

I have no clear idea why the mint would apply this outside an aspect of QC/QA for dies that need approval prior to release for production.

The mint didn't 'put it there intentionally.

How can you not see the 9 or this doubling?

It is something random and is simply called a struck through. It looks like a 9 but is is not a purposeful addition to the die. By virtue of striking billions of coins annually, stuff happens, and something got into the chamber.
I really am sorry you are having issues with them. We can give you an avenue to vent, but within reason please.

[atrox001]

Here is an example of a struck thru wire with the wire still attached.
image_151.jpg
image_152.jpg

[MintErrors]

In the past 40+ years of collecting errors, and attributing them at shows, this appears to be nothing spectacular compared to some I have seen. In my opinion, its nothing more than a strike thru. There is no good reasoning why a "9" would randomly show up on a coin year that does not require one, nor on the opposite side of the coin and at a position which is highly out of place in comparison to the normal placement of any Jefferson nickel year. The size is way off, and too long to even compare to any current united states coinage.

As far as the DDR, Proof coins are subject to multiple strikes, and if there is any slight offset, you are going to see those minute changes in the multiple strikes, especially if there is an object that gets struck through during the strikes, its bound to cause a very slight condition where the die is shifted ever so slightly. At the magnification needed for those photos, it would come back as minor IF it was, which I do not believe it is.

Atrox example reminds me of a 1964-D Kennedy that had a strike through dead center on the obverse, and the retained raised metal looked like hands of a clock, pointing at K9 and K2 or 3. The "hands" of the coins were about an inch or more long and pointed at both ends.

On a Jefferson nickel, I have seen a huge bowtie error that was on a proof coin that covered over 50% of the design features of the reverse. That was impressive.

Enough said. I am done. I am not into beating a dead horse.

[mustbebob]

I knew this was coming when I read your post the first time. You are knowledgeable and think you have the answers for almost everything. However, as many people have found out over the years, the simplest answers are usually the best and are correct. You are incorrect in your assessment of this being something that it isn't. Why some folks tend to over examine anything is beyond me when simple answers are at hand. I will make it perfectly blunt, although I had hoped to avoid that. It is a strike through where something got into the striking chamber. No magic, no mint secrets at all. No number 9. Unfortunately, you suffer from pareidolia and it is not a bad thing to think you see something other than what is actually there. There was no purposeful axis alignment, no polishing into the fields...no nothing. A piece of scrap something got caught in the striking chamber and was crushed by a die that imparted the impression into the coin. This (The US Mint) is a giant machine shop and this happens all the time. There are literally thousands of struck through errors on coins, and there has been for a couple of centuries now. I have seen and have on hand, examples where simple threads leave an impression all the way to still embedded fibers and wire brush fragments. In addition to all that, I have been to the US mint on a couple of occasions and have witnessed the entire process from design to actual striking of the coins. I also have over 50 years experience examining and attributing coins. I have been mentored by some of the finest minds in the business. I have also worked in aircraft and automotive shops where equipment was used, and I can attest to the fact that stuff happens with machinery. Please try to understand that none of this is anything more than the simplest answer.

[mustbebob]

There isn't. If it appears I am being aggressive, it is because I have seen this all before. As the moderator of this forum, I have seen many, many people come here like you have and have basically unfounded claims. I call them unfounded and I have replied what I think it is based upon my experience. You have not managed to convince me or anyone else here, so I will leave it at that. I will also leave the thread open for other opinions. Please remember that we do not need to prove what you say it is, it is up to you to prove what you think it is and so far, you haven't.
So I can give you as much credit as you deserve, would you please tell me what your expertise is concerning the minting of US coinage? It would help me understand your mindset better. Thanks!

[Kloccwork419]

Send it back to PCGS or wherever you think will satisfy your thoughts. Make up whatever you want and send it to a TPG and it will come back exactly like it is now, a normal grade or a minor strike through with a normal grade. Thats what it is, nobody needs to prove to you why or show you exact examples of others. Don’t believe it then why post it here? If you already think you know, then why ask? The only answer you will accept is your own, so answer yourself and move on. Try another forum and debate with them when they tell you the same thing.

[MintErrors]

My motivation to post was related to gaining understanding of the function of PCGS and it was answered. I never asked how it occurred.

GREAT. Then I hope you were satisfied with the answer. Time to let this rot on the vine.

Then Bob may kindly close this drag the horse through the mud thread. Here are two respected websites that you have asked for assistance and two that have provided answers. The answers did not come from just one individual, they came from a handful. We as a group here do NOT have to prove to you, anything. Your "claims" are simply hearsay - the evidence HAS been proven by that slabbed coin you have in your possession. YOU hold that coin in your hand, take select photographs and provide information and say - refute ! Sorry, it doesn't work that way - The refute and correct diagnosis was provided already by that PCGS slab.

Here, the answers have been provided, a common courtesy as we do with everyone. We're done. You don't like that answer? Too bad. We're not here for your entertainment. You can get that on Twitter and the other places you commonly visit. Don't bother quoting me on all of this, nor even replying to this. I won't help people who refuse a correct, logical answer.

[mustbebob]

I will indeed close this thread. As I have already stated...we have seen people like you here before and it is ALWAYS counter productive to a forum. Our membership deserves more than this, and I will make sure this goes no further. I will leave the post visible as a way of teaching others what NOT to do to thrive in our community. Please continue to deal directly with PCGS. I told you already about some of their processes. You won't get anything else from here.