2008 silver proof half double

[jcuve]

rockdude if you would read all post on this thread it may help you to understand things better. I just noticed that Mr. Neff has confirmed what I said earlier about ejection doubling or what some call MD with some of his photos on post #9 of this thread.

Nothing personal, but I cringe when I see other terms for MD; such as flat field doubling or ejection doubling. I'm with A. Herbert and M. Diamond with the whole Push Type and Slide Type regardless if the Push Type is likely due to somewhat different causes. Fancy names for common machine doubling just confuse the already existing problem with new collectors trying to understand what is collectible and what is not.

[rockdude]

Rockdude is today the old take it out on Rascal day ? I do not even understand what the heck you are talking about. You need to learn a little more about coins then maybe you could understand what other folks say. If you will go back and look I said the the frosting on the letters and numbers made it look like whatever was wrong with the coin was probably done while the coin was still in the die .

I never once said the coin was bright and smooth. what I was trying to say was that if this was ejection doubling then the letters would be bright and smooth in the areas that looks to be doubled which is the truth. ejection doubling is when a coin becomes stuck in the coin die and the ejection finger slams the coin into the sharp edges of the letters and numbers of the coin die.this damages the details of the coin because the details of the die cuts back into the struck coin's letters or numbers.so common sense will tell us that the frosting would be gone off the part of the letters of the coin in question that received the die damage if this was ejection doubling. So If the frosting was gone don't you think this area would become smooth ?

Now Rockdude take you time and see if you can recognise what I told you.

Oh by the way what are you drinking today. send me some of that.

Nope just trying to get you to clarify your comment about "bright and smooth" in post #4.

[rascal]

Nothing personal, but I cringe when I see other terms for MD; such as flat field doubling or ejection doubling. I'm with A. Herbert and M. Diamond with the whole Push Type and Slide Type regardless if the Push Type is likely due to somewhat different causes. Fancy names for common machine doubling just confuse the already existing problem with new collectors trying to understand what is collectible and what is not.

Nothing personal here either Jason , but if we just combine every type of mechanical doubling into one group and just say MD this looks to me like it confuses the beginning error collectors even more because each type looks a little bit different.

It's impossible to tell some of the new collectors anything anyway. a good example is the Ebay seller that is trying to sell a 1930 s cent coin and I told him his coin was only mechanical doubling and not worth much. His reply was that his double die was more rare than the other doubled dies.He only wants $4,500 for his coin. I was going to bid for it but Ebay would not let me bid for .01 they said min. bid .99 LOL

I try to help anyone I can to get started in the error hobby and learn about the different types of error or variety coins. TW

[jcuve]

I know the overpriced coin you speak of and this guy's way overpriced nonsensical asking price. No one who is sane with that kind of money would bid on something like that. I think I too PM'd the guy about his coin but I cannot recall his response - probably similar to yours.

I don't really think the various types of MD look all that different when you really study them. The slide type (which is rare) is the only one to me that looks different. There are a few doubled dies with minimal to no notching which can look similar to deceptive mild MD.

Another thing not helping MD diagnosis is that fact that it is almost equally called either machine doubling, mechanical doubling or strike doubling. No one can agree on a term - this just complicates matters...

[rascal]

Jason the worthless or maybe I should say cheaper form of doubling on our coins sure is complicated. You are right about some of the real double die coins looking similar to machine doubling.

I have some of the new gold color dollar coins that have a mystery to me about them. On the reverse side below Liberty is a small part of Liberty's gown showing up on top of the rim of these coins.

I sold a few of them on Ebay back about 3 or 4 years ago to someone that wanted to do research on them and I had to go in for heart surgery and never did find out what he decided about them.

Have you heard anything about this occurance on the dollar coins ? I'm thinking it may have been something like a worn aligment pin in the die shaft and the die may have hit these coins in the wrong place then maybe it bounced back into place when full pressure was applied. I have some of these new dollars with this same defect on two different president coins.

[diamond]

Actually, "flat field doubling" is a different animal. It's simply what happens when there's a little bit of die movement between the first and second strike a proof coin receives. The first-strike design elements are crushed flat into the field. So "flat field doubling" is nothing more than a detectable double strike. As such, it's an unnecessary and confusing term.

"Ejection doubling" is indistinguishable from the "slide doubling" subtype of machine doubling, and should therefore also be sunk.

Nothing personal, but I cringe when I see other terms for MD; such as flat field doubling or ejection doubling. I'm with A. Herbert and M. Diamond with the whole Push Type and Slide Type regardless if the Push Type is likely due to somewhat different causes. Fancy names for common machine doubling just confuse the already existing problem with new collectors trying to understand what is collectible and what is not.

[diamond]

The "rim doubling" has recently been confirmed as a type of machine doubling. This was always the suspicion, but it took a particularly strong example with machine doubling on both the rim and design to prove it.

I have some of the new gold color dollar coins that have a mystery to me about them. On the reverse side below Liberty is a small part of Liberty's gown showing up on top of the rim of these coins.

I sold a few of them on Ebay back about 3 or 4 years ago to someone that wanted to do research on them and I had to go in for heart surgery and never did find out what he decided about them.

Have you heard anything about this occurance on the dollar coins ? I'm thinking it may have been something like a worn aligment pin in the die shaft and the die may have hit these coins in the wrong place then maybe it bounced back into place when full pressure was applied. I have some of these new dollars with this same defect on two different president coins.

[19Lyds]

Actually, "flat field doubling" is a different animal. It's simply what happens when there's a little bit of die movement between the first and second strike a proof coin receives. The first-strike design elements are crushed flat into the field. So "flat field doubling" is nothing more than a detectable double strike. As such, it's an unnecessary and confusing term.

I think the photo below illustrates this point.



The outline of the "flattened" mint mark can clearly be seen.
On proof coins, which I cannot seem to locate a photograph, the area would look almost like a "ghosted" device.

[rockdude]

Rascal, I don't know if it was a typing error but when you wrote in post # 20 "You are right about some of the real double die coins looking similar to machine doubling" you wrote "double die" (which as you may know there is no such a thing as a 'double die') instead of 'DoublED Die'.
Just thought I'd mention that because I don't want some of the newer ones to get confused.

If I am wrong please ignore this post.

[19Lyds]

Rascal, I don't know if it was a typing error but when you wrote in post # 20 "You are right about some of the real double die coins looking similar to machine doubling" you wrote "double die" (which as you may know there is no such a thing as a 'double die') instead of 'DoublED Die'.
Just thought I'd mention that because I don't want some of the newer ones to get confused.

If I am wrong please ignore this post.

Oh for criminey's sake!

[rascal]

The "rim doubling" has recently been confirmed as a type of machine doubling. This was always the suspicion, but it took a particularly strong example with machine doubling on both the rim and design to prove it.

Thanks Mike for the information. I knew these would be hard to confirm exactly what caused this to show up on a few of the new dollar coins. I've been about out of collecting and selling for a while and am now trying to ease back into things. There are some things about this extra doubling on these coins that still about has me stumped. some of them are rotated clockwise and some counter clockwise between what looks like different strikes. and some of them have the extra strikes where even they are showing twice plus the normal strike. I'm adding a photo so you can see this. this is one of the most narrow doubled coins I have. I just imaged this one because of what looks like the doubled extra design . Mike I'm just mentioning double strikes to give you a idea of what I'm trying to say.

[rockdude]

Oh for criminey's sake!

I know, I'm done.

[jcuve]

So I may not have interpreted Flat Field Doubling correctly, meaning I need to identify an example and illustrate it so I have got it. Always something new to learn - and I need to figure this one out pronto...thanks for the info Mike!
BTW I see this illustrated and explained differently on different web pages - it would appear that Mike's definition excludes business strikes (which is why I was confused).

[diamond]

So I may not have interpreted Flat Field Doubling correctly, meaning I need to identify an example and illustrate it so I have got it. Always something new to learn - and I need to figure this one out pronto...thanks for the info Mike!
BTW I see this illustrated and explained differently on different web pages - it would appear that Mike's definition excludes business strikes (which is why I was confused).

When it's on business strikes, folks just call it a close double strike.

I think the rationale for calling it something different on proofs is that proofs are struck more than once as a matter of course. I think a better term for the proofies would be "detectable double strike" or something of the sort.

[diamond]

Thanks Mike for the information. I knew these would be hard to confirm exactly what caused this to show up on a few of the new dollar coins. I've been about out of collecting and selling for a while and am now trying to ease back into things. There are some things about this extra doubling on these coins that still about has me stumped. some of them are rotated clockwise and some counter clockwise between what looks like different strikes. and some of them have the extra strikes where even they are showing twice plus the normal strike. I'm adding a photo so you can see this. this is one of the most narrow doubled coins I have. I just imaged this one because of what looks like the doubled extra design . Mike I'm just mentioning double strikes to give you a idea of what I'm trying to say.

Machine doubling is variable in its expression. There's no reason why this rim-restricted form of machine doubling should be any different. I've seen others with a doubled impression and with slight rotations.