Discussion: 1889 P Vam-52 Morgan $ w/ obvs dime planchet sized & shaped marks

[Ken-Pollock]

i've had a discussion about this coin of mine over at Vamworld during the past year. [see these links] http://www.vamworld.com/share/view/51358288 ... http://www.vamworld.com/share/view/62804198 Brian Raines had the coin in-hand recently and but was unable to determine how it/the mark(s) were made. he did not see curved-up edges around the marks...so pmd seems to be eliminated [at least in my mind...i've never thought it was pmd from the first time i saw it (which was while i was taking pics of the coin to sell/close-ups)...i do not believe anything else could've made these "man-made" dime planchet shaped & sized mark other than a dime planchet or something that produces dime planchets...an added dime planchet or part of one has been eliminated as a possibility both through Brian's studies of it and "vampicker"'s explaining to me that there's not enough pressure when minting for this bonding to occur and have it look as my coin does].

both Brian Raines and vampicker have aimed me at this site (Brian sees the coin as being in ms61+/ms62 condition fwiw) ... and so here are the questions: where does this coin belong? (it's an error coin isn't it? but where does it fit in here?) ... how were the marks formed/made? (that determines it's proper place in the error coin sector doesn't it?) ... has anyone seen any other Morgan $'s like this? or any other coins that have a planchet type of mark/outline on them from a coin of a different size than the main coin planchet? i'd like to see pictures of them if possible. (i believe i'm rather familiar with posting & using the program/s here at CONECA's board ... and since this is my first post i'll see how it goes and maybe update or change something if i need to)

several pics of the coin's obverse and it's marks are at the first link above in the earliest posts section [also at this link recently, vamworld member "coindevil" used a link i posted to a morgan $ and a mercury dime and over-laid them to show that the marks on my coin do fit those of a US dime (or rather their planchet's shape/arc) quite convincingly] ...the second link is a recent update post after Brian looked very closely at it with his microscope. i will try to post a few pics here to simplify things:

my coin 1889 P Vam-52








superimposed merc dime over morgan $ showing where the lines/marks should be...fits quite well doesn't it?

[jay4202472000]

Beautiful coin. I can't wait to see what the experts say. This is way out of my league. I just wanted to say beautiful coin and this is a very interesting topic. Best of luck.

[Ken-Pollock]

thanks...and thanks to Mike Diamond for his help shedding some light on this type of error coin. looks like ANACS will eventually get my business in this case regarding slabbing, grading & description of error.

[jay4202472000]

What did Mike say?

[Ken-Pollock]

Mike Diamond's 2 replies are posted here: http://board.conecaonline.org/showthread.php?t=3924

where i mistakenly first started this thread. fortunately i had also posted the same pics as are seen here, and so my first post is ok as it is now (i've edited it a few times) as a post with pics of an error coin (it is seen as one now finally). still, i wish folks would acknowledge the shape of the prior-to-minting planchet mark as being that of a "dime" [(in essence...most likely a dime planchet incomplete punch mark of a dime or some such similar thing. i cannot conceive of how it can be anything else. a "man-made"/unnatural dime shaped arc/mark can only be produced from a dime outlined/scribed or a dime producing device/machine/thing imso) i'll wait for people to come around to this point of view eventually. in the meantime, i'll hold onto it. - just study the superimposed image in my first post and compare it to where the mark/s on my coin hits/intersects important details: like across the face/and under the eye, into the hair, the tip of the leaf, the right-side top of the Y, the wheat blade and so on...there is also an angled mark on this coin at the edge/rim between the R & I just where it should be...as well as a barely visible extension of the line before the nose in the field...again, all conforming to the shape of a dime/more so i think a dime planchet outline...which would be a little narrower diameter-wise i believe. ] i think it's a good investment among other things...plus i do like this coin. it's not common in may ways. good stuff. it seems to pay-off to continue learning and paying close attention to your coins & so on. as always, a little time & good work well spent.

[Ken-Pollock]

i'm not going to keep posting the same thing on my two threads here

but this time i'm just adding 5 more photos to help folks perhaps see the dime sized & shaped mark i'm talking about better. and re-posting my recent post from the mint error image gallery section here where my other thread is located: http://board.conecaonline.org/showthread.php?t=3924 ... hopefully, the pictures will speak for themselves.

"i continue to discuss this coin at vamworld as well here: http://www.vamworld.com/share/view/62804198 ...as i say, i'd like the shape of the mark to be noted on this coin when it is certified & graded...ie. that it is dime-like in shape and size. thoughts? comments? the first picture is of a mark on the edge which may be an extension of the main mark. the modern dime is resting on my coin's protective cover."

[jay4202472000]

Wow Ken! This is very interesting. It looks a lot like the shape and curvature of a dime. I hope it all works out in your favor. Good luck.

[Ken-Pollock]

thanks jay

[Ken-Pollock]

fwiw...

i've recently posted many more pics of this coin and it's marks compared to a dime and a penny here: http://www.vamworld.com/share/view/62804198

lots of discussion has occurred as well today.

[rascal]

Someone has damaged a beautiful dollar coin. This is definately only a few scratches on the coin , this has happened somewhere along the way after the coin left the mint over a hundred years ago. I have examined many scratches on coins that folks thought was something else and I know sometimes the scratches can confuse up. Find a cent coin that is only worth face value and put some scratches on it then rub your finger over the scratches and watch how different they look after being rubbed.

[wavysteps]

Looking at the grove on the coin, it is consistent with damage that I have seen on a few coins.

The story can be told by observing the line as it passes under Liberty's eye and into her hair line. The grooved line under Liberty's eye is shallow and as it transitions into the hair, it becomes more pronounced or deeper. This can be seen on the first lock of Liberty's hair. After it passes through that lock of hair, the line becomes thinner an less pronounced, until it goes into the next lock of hair where it again becomes more pronounced.

This points to the fact that the line was not on the die, but applied after the coin was struck. Recessed areas in the die would show less pronounced lines than areas near or at the surface of the die. Of course, this would not hold true if the die was scratched by single, sharp point, with equal pressure applied as it travel from point A to point B. However, you are not indicating that as the source of this damage. you are implying that it was made by a dime planchet.

If this were pre-strike damage on that planchet, the line would have been obliterated by the strike. One only has to look at double struck coin in collar to see that a second strike all but obliterates the first strike features. In this case, the amount of pressure used to strike the coin was much higher. The silver dollar required much more pressure to strike than any other denomination (except for the large gold denominations). So, any chance of that line surviving a strike and still show to that degree that it does is highly unlikely. The fact that there was no sings of "pushed" metal (extra or raised metal on either side of the damage) does not necessarily mean that this damage was not post strike. "Pushed" metal can be virtually undetectable and is dependent on the shape and size of the object that made the damage which caused the "pushed" metal to occur.

In my humble opinion, you have a damaged coin. The damage was either caused by a crescent or circular tool (object) that struck the coin twice.

I would suggest that you do send this coin to TPG such as PCGS to see what they say.

BJ Neff

[coin-crazy]

I see PMD..

[rascal]

If I make some cuts on my silver dollars and other coins would that make them error coins and worth more cash ? I see coins on Ebay from time to time that are beaten to death and sold as valuable error coins. I wonder what ever happened to the OP's coin that is shown in this thread.