2021 D LSC - Indentation curiously similar to Rockwell Test Mark

[considine]

Hello to All. I am new to the Forum. I have a 2021 D LSC that I found and set aside months ago. Then I read the article on the Rockwell Test Mark on CONECA. This indentation on Lincolns' shoulder looks very much like a Rockwell Test Mark. However, according to James Motley in an email:

Kellie according the US Mint who Pete Apple and Fred Weinberg have conferred with. The Rockwell test are not being done on the face of the dies but on the necks which is the side of the die....

"The Rockwell-C hardness inspection is performed after the heat treatment process (after the dies come out of the furnace and cool). A sample of the dies are tested on their neck. Also “slugs” (dummy dies) are included with each batch of dies in the furnace and they are cross-sectioned to test for through-hardness."

the 'neck' referred to is the area below the die face, usually where the die base thins out at the top, and the neck area is the same diameter as the die face. (the base of the die is wider in most cases)

Therefore one must conclude that a Rockwell Test Mark is highly unlikely. However, I am posting pictures in hopes of getting some input on how this indentation may have occurred. I tried to upload a close up but the forum states it is not 'a valid image file' not sure why but the full coin pics are loading fine.

Thank you for your time.

[mustbebob]

Unfortunately, there are a billion possible things that could have caused that mark. It might have even been a struck through at the mint. It does look similar to a Rockwell mark, but unless you were there when this mark was made and saw it being made, it would be impossible to narrow it down conclusively.

[MintErrors]

For photographs, just make sure your under the limit size, I think it is 2 meg per photo. you can try adding an additional photo in a reply and see if it behaves.

As for the area in question, I can see the mark, south and east of the Y in "LIBERTY", on the shoulder of Lincoln.

The possibilities are endless. It could have been some foreign matter made it into the striking chamber and is known as a strike through. My immediate thought was it seems to appear like one of the small "BB's" they use to burnish the blank planchets prior to them getting struck, but that is only a guess. From the looks of the photo the "skin" of the coin was not broken, so it did not go too deep. It may have been a softer material, but since we don't have any residue or additional clues, it is really tough to come up with that perfect answer.

Strike throughs are one of the coin types that seems to escape the US Mint's incredible QA/QC standards.

What I do not know is, if this area, if closely scrutinized, will tell you if it was on the planchet before or after the coin was struck. That can be tough to determine !

Bob P. the Lincoln cent attributer will probably chime in.

[considine]

Thank you mustbebob and MintErrors, appreciate your comments.. I think I am going to send it off to PCGS, they have agreed to examine the coin. Not sure what good it will do! My close up is 87.9 kb and still will not load....

[MintErrors]

Understood. Errors can be costly to get slabbed. In my opinion, ANACS may be significantly cheaper, but the choice is yours.

As for the photo, there have been times where I make a duplicate of the photo, rename it and ensure it is a jpg like all others and it loads fine. I don't believe we will ever tame electrons.

[Kloccwork419]

Good luck with that choice. Of course PCGS will examine it, they are doing it for the money, period. Nothing like wasting $75+ for them just to slab it as a normal coin worth 1 cent. I wouldn’t send this coin in to any TPG. To me it looks like some PMD.

[considine]

Thank you MintErrors and Kloccwork419 for your input. Tried renaming the close up but finally ended up cropping and saving and that worked! Kloccwork419- I had a knowledgeable friend look at this coin in hand and he believes the indentation was made before the strike saying 'this is evidenced by the fact there’s no metal expansion around the indentation.'. However, that said I am not sure sending it off to be examined will ever determine the authenticity or lack thereof....PCGS said they would examine it under Mint Errors/Special Issues Category for $65. Still on the fence here as to how to proceed.

[Kloccwork419]

Looks like a minor strike through or still possible PMD. Still not worth being slabbed. The plastic will be worth more than the coin.

[MintErrors]

First of all,, you are welcome. I am glad the extra effort paid off, good job and great photo.

I don't know for investment purposes that it would be worth it if it was deemed what you would like it to be. As for PCGS pricing, that very well may be just their grading and attribution fee only. If they did not quote you a price with return shipping included, that can be additional money, sometimes near $20 or more for the return postage.

If the error king Fred W. Was involved and data came through him or he was included in an email chain, he is an expert in this field. I have conversed with Fred on occasionally and he would definitely chime in if it was something he thought would be a high probability.

If the mark was there prior to the strike and it can be proven under high magnification, Klocc is probably right, they would simply call it either a damaged planchet, a strike through or other minor error. There are just sooooo many ways a mark like that could happen. It could be as simple as a blank getting free on the mint floor, got stepped on, eventually picked and thrown into a bin of planchets that made it to the minting process and the rest is history.

if PCGS doesn't have a person in house for this type of error, they would send it to a third party error attributer, and that person would make the call. If the likelihood of this is very low,, then they will more than likely make an attribution call that is not what you want to hear.

Now if the coin was called a strike through and the object was retained on the coin, it would be worth a premium since the QA QC standards for error coins is so good that a very tiny amount of errors escape the mint anymore.

Good luck with what ever your decision will be.

[considine]

Thank you so much for the detailed response MintErrors. I do know this is a fools errand. However, that being said I am most curious to see the results. I have never submitted a coin and so perhaps am very naive. That said I do believe the indentation was made before the strike . Questions: Who is Fred W. associated with? When you say object retained on the coin, I take that is not the case with my coin, is that correct?

I think PCGS is very expensive and given the fact that the examinations provided in the memberships do not include Error Coins it will be even more pricey.

I am planning on contacting another TPG to see if they are willing to examine it.

[Kloccwork419]

You're better off using ANACS but this wasn't done before the strike. It was during (minor strike through) or PMD. If this was my coin, I would toss it back without hesitation.

[MintErrors]

Thank you so much for the detailed response MintErrors. I do know this is a fools errand. However, that being said I am most curious to see the results. I have never submitted a coin and so perhaps am very naive. That said I do believe the indentation was made before the strike . Questions: Who is Fred W. associated with? When you say object retained on the coin, I take that is not the case with my coin, is that correct?

I think PCGS is very expensive and given the fact that the examinations provided in the memberships do not include Error Coins it will be even more pricey.

I am planning on contacting another TPG to see if they are willing to examine it.

Hey, I totally understand to want positive closure on the coin. It's all good.

I am assuming that you seen this long winded article about the tests?
https://conecaonline.org/rockwell-ha...lincoln-cents/


Fred Weinberg is one of the leading error experts in the world. He is based out of California and is getting ready to retire.

Here is his impressive bio:
https://www.fredweinberg.com/about-us/

I don't know what state you reside in, but here is the deal with ANACS. They attend good sized shows in almost every state.

On the ANACS.com website, they offer a "map" of the US, and you can choose a state and see what shows the reps will be at.
They will help fill out the form, pay the required fees to include return shipping and the rep then packs it up and sends the coin into ANACS in Colorado for free.

Here is the link to the shows. Pick a state and scroll down a bit to see results....
https://anacs.com/shows.aspx

If you become an ANACS insider, they give discounts. All you do is sign up to receive some emails from them when they offer specials, and then add that some where on the submission paperwork. Make sure you tell the ANACS rep your an insider, it may save some costs.

Since this is not a variety, I think the total cost will be close to $19.00, plus whatever postage may be. I dont know if there are any additional fees for errors, ask the ANACS rep or customer service. They can even mail you a submission kit.

The catch is, it will probably be sent off to one of the attribution experts so there may be a significant delay getting it back, probably five weeks or more. So, it does NOT pay to have the coin returned quicker IF this coin will be sent out to an outside error attributer...

If James Motely already informed you about the coin's potential, I do not know if CONECA can do an attribution service and be swayed by seeing it in person. That fee may be really low, and you'd get a letter stating what it is. I don't know who CONECA uses for their error attribution, or if they are even accepting attributions at this time.

Your coin does not have the item retained, if it was, it would still be in the socket of that little crater, if it were a small BB from burnishing the planchets or other foreign material.

One last thing... the dies and the location of the hardness test. It is on the side, or if the neck, the thinner side of the die and not the end where the die images are. Here is a quick photo.

two dies.jpg

[considine]

Thank you Kloccwork419 & MintErrors for your thoughts and information. Your kindness and patience is greatly appreciated.

Perhaps this may be folly, but given the information regarding ANACS, I think I could risk sending it off. I live in New Orleans and will follow your instructions MintErrors.

In addition, you mention Fred Weinburg once again, does he work with ANACS on attributions?

[MintErrors]

They are kind of hush on the attributers they do use, I think it may change on availability. it could be Mike Diamond as well. I dunno.

You see this article CONECA has?

https://conecaonline.org/rockwell-ha...lincoln-cents/

[considine]

Yes, MintErrors I saw that article! That is when I realized I had found and set aside a coin that looked just like that! Took me awhile to find it ....