1945 S Nickel Rev. Double Struck

[Coindog]

THIS IS A WOW! I bought a Jefferson collection book of nickels and found this. It's a bit dirty but, the reverse speaks for itself. I'm still studying it as to what all I'm seeing. I'm seeing a remnant of the S m/m in the field at 2 o'clock.

[Kloccwork419]

Looks like damage from a fire. Not from the mint. PMD.

[MintErrors]

The only thing I see that is of interest for me is the diagonal lines that go from STATES, Through FIVE into the MO in Monticello and a small distance into the building. They appear to be of equal distance apart and raised. I can understand that the field area has the same height but when it gets into the devices, these are sunk into the die and these lines would have to penetrate pretty deeply into the devices themselves.

Not sure what they are. I will download a copy of the photo and look at it closer. If I can find anything significant I will edit this post.

EDIT: The lines are two separate pairs. I THINK these lines existed prior to the strike of the coin. This can be evidenced by looking at the "F" in FIVE. It appears in the picture provided that the "F" is full and intact on top of the line. This may hold true for the "E" in FIVE as well, but the photo is just not clear enough to make that call with confidence. They look almost like some sort of track marks.


Not sure if the planchet was bad, these don't look like feeder finger damage. If it was multistruck, with this area being so predominant, other areas would have shown up as well. With the probability of the lines under the strike, places it in the planchet issue category I believe.

Some one like Mike Diamond would probably know what they came from.

[Coindog]

Looks like damage from a fire. Not from the mint. PMD.

I've seen enough multiple struck coins to know the difference and I'm not blind or stupid. I do a lot of research and studying of coins and errors.
The reverse is not from fire damage. It was definitely done at the mint. Not going to debate it, it's going straight to ANACS for verification.

[MintErrors]

Then if you had your mind up in the beginning, why the post? I am just saying.

Those lines are under the die strike the only thing it can be is related to the planchet itself.

No one said your blind or stupid, where that came from I have no idea. We offer opinions on this forum and that is what you receive. No need to be brash about it, take them with a grain of salt and move on. We're trying to help and do so to those that appreciate another angle of thought.

[Coindog]

The only thing I see that is of interest for me is the diagonal lines that go from STATES, Through FIVE into the MO in Monticello and a small distance into the building. They appear to be of equal distance apart and raised. I can understand that the field area has the same height but when it gets into the devices, these are sunk into the die and these lines would have to penetrate pretty deeply into the devices themselves.

Not sure what they are. I will download a copy of the photo and look at it closer. If I can find anything significant I will edit this post.

EDIT: The lines are two separate pairs. I THINK these lines existed prior to the strike of the coin. This can be evidenced by looking at the "F" in FIVE. It appears in the picture provided that the "F" is full and intact on top of the line. This may hold true for the "E" in FIVE as well, but the photo is just not clear enough to make that call with confidence. They look almost like some sort of track marks.


Not sure if the planchet was bad, these don't look like feeder finger damage. If it was multistruck, with this area being so predominant, other areas would have shown up as well. With the probability of the lines under the strike, places it in the planchet issue category I believe.

Some one like Mike Diamond would probably know what they came from.

My initial thought was that it was caused by some kind of severe reverse die clash. The further I examine it under the microscope, the more I'm leaning that way.

[Kloccwork419]

So only double struck on one side? The lines match up with the steps but how is there incused lettering of MONTI in the field below them? Smart move would be to message Mike Diamond. Since you're the "error expert", send it to PCGS.

[Coindog]

Then if you had your mind up in the beginning, why the post? I am just saying.

Those lines are under the die strike the only thing it can be is related to the planchet itself.

No one said your blind or stupid, where that came from I have no idea. We offer opinions on this forum and that is what you receive. No need to be brash about it, take them with a grain of salt and move on. We're trying to help and do so to those that appreciate another angle of thought.

Sorry but, he made me feel stupid, as though I'm an uneducated novice to coins. I am looking at two possible causes for this reverse. A die clash of some kind or mutiple strikes. I've seen a few graded pennies that were struck multiple times on just one side and I've seen several die clashes that resulted in similar attributes of a reverse clash imparting a rotated reverse image. Actually if you look at the first scope image I sent you, you can the step outline continue across the base of the building.

[Coindog]

So only double struck on one side? The lines match up with the steps but how is there incused lettering of MONTI in the field below them? Smart move would be to message Mike Diamond. Since you're the "error expert", send it to PCGS.

My most educated thought leans towards a type of reverse die clash which would account for the incused lettering. I several coins going to John Wexler, who lives near by. This might be another. Although Mike Diamond would be preferable since I have another coin I would like him to look at.

[mustbebob]

Sorry but, he made me feel stupid, as though I'm an uneducated novice to coins.

None of us here knows the full expertise of someone else. We have to try and give opinions based on what we are seeing, and at times it is difficult to know what the other person knows and what would and wouldn't sound good without being or sounding condescending. It is hard at times. At other times, people insist that they know it was made at the mint, while others know that it would be impossible. We try to strike a happy medium here and I will try to ensure that nobody is treated unfairly. In order for this forum to succeed, It does take all involved though. Sometimes, the best answer is no answer if you feel you are getting no where. We are not obligated to give an opinion that we know the other person may not like. In that case, they can move on to prevent friction here.

[Coindog]

So only double struck on one side? The lines match up with the steps but how is there incused lettering of MONTI in the field below them? Smart move would be to message Mike Diamond. Since you're the "error expert", send it to PCGS.

I just had another thought of what might have occurred. It is quite possible that two planchets were fed into the strike chamber together and the hammer side planchet got ejected while this anvil planchet remained and rotated before it got struck again. Just another thought why only the reverse is double struck.

[Coindog]

My initial thought was that it was caused by some kind of severe reverse die clash. The further I examine it under the microscope, the more I'm leaning that way.

I just had another thought of what might have occurred. It is quite possible that two planchets were fed into the strike chamber together, struck, and the hammer side planchet got ejected while this anvil planchet remained and rotated before it got struck again. Just another thought why only the reverse is double struck. The only problem with that idea is that more of the reverse device elements should exist in the fields, unless they got mostly absorbed in the second strike. I need to send this to Mike Diamond.

[Kloccwork419]

The incused letters would not be from a clash. If it was a clash, they would be reversed and incused. Even in a Type 2 counter clash, where the letters would be the same orientation, they wouldnt be incused. I still dont believe this came from the mint this way. You take it how you want. Just because you sent coins to Wexler before doesn’t mean anything, big deal Everyone here has coins on every attribution site. Good luck on your coin but Ill be adding you to the ignore list that seems to be getting long pretty fast here.

[MintErrors]

I purposely ignored the double incused monticello until I figured out the lines. The lines appear raised. The Montecello's appears to be incused. Something is funky there, not sure what is going on. But again, the lines appear to be under the strike and could be a totally separate issue.

If it were my coin, this is what I could do. Take a very clear photograph of this entire reverse. Then using a photo editing tool like paint dot net, see if you can do an overlay and match the lines up with each monticello. The spacing might be the same, meaning they are related some how. the more I think about it, the more these lines look like the base of the Monticello building...

[Coindog]

I purposely ignored the double incused monticello until I figured out the lines. The lines appear raised. The Montecello's appears to be incused. Something is funky there, not sure what is going on. But again, the lines appear to be under the strike and could be a totally separate issue.

If it were my coin, this is what I could do. Take a very clear photograph of this entire reverse. Then using a photo editing tool like paint dot net, see if you can do an overlay and match the lines up with each monticello. The spacing might be the same, meaning they are related some how. the more I think about it, the more these lines look like the base of the Monticello building...

If I can take a good photo of the entire reverse and send it to you, could you do the overlay?