1985D 25C MAD & Possible RPM

[Shleppodella1]

Now, I looked on Variety-Vista and PCGS but found nothing on this being a possible RPM, the doubling of the loop along with the inside of the D shows all the hallmarks of a RPM. The obv also appears to be a misaligned die because rev is right on point.

[MintErrors]

In my opinion, the mintmark looks like it took some damage. As for the RPM possibility, it looks like machine/worthless doubling. Look around the obverse of the coin to see if there are any other areas that show damage in the same general direction.

in ref to the MAD, it might be a MAD, but it is very minor. When I look for MAD's I am looking for something like this:

1971-D 10c MAD Dime Obv.jpg

1971-D 10c MAD Dime Rev.jpg

[occnumis2021]

In my opinion, the mintmark looks like it took some damage. As for the RPM possibility, it looks like machine/worthless doubling. Look around the obverse of the coin to see if there are any other areas that show damage in the same general direction.

in ref to the MAD, it might be a MAD, but it is very minor. When I look for MAD's I am looking for something like this:

a very nice angry roosie!

[IvoR1!]

Could the mint mark doubling have been caused by hammer bounce, if I’m learning anything I’ve been reading is that the
mint marks were punched by hand until 1989 or 90. There appears to be that slight dimple around the mint mark to indicate
a separate punch from the rest of the die. If I’m wrong go gently with me! Remember there’s no such thing as a dumb question.

Ivo

[Shleppodella1]

I second that question please.

[occnumis2021]

Could the mint mark doubling have been caused by hammer bounce, if I’m learning anything I’ve been reading is that the
mint marks were punched by hand until 1989 or 90. There appears to be that slight dimple around the mint mark to indicate
a separate punch from the rest of the die. If I’m wrong go gently with me! Remember there’s no such thing as a dumb question.

Ivo

if a MM punch is hit in such a way as to create a second but minor with little to no rotation mm, it is usually referred to as a split serif rpm where generally you can just see enough separation to designate it as such. in my experience it is not common (for some reason) to see this minor separation in other parts of the mm other than the serif(s).

the mm in the OP would not qualify for such a thing imo. if it were an rpm, it would be strong enough to most likely be a 2nd blow creating another whole or nearly whole mm, although most is not visible because it is overlapping.

your notation of the divot around the mm is seen on many coins and has baffled me to some extent for years. if it is lower on the coin, it is higher on the die, which means the area around the MM on the punch would need to be recessed. so i presume that the mm was punched into a master die or hub and during each transfer along the line, it goes from positive, to negative and you can start at the coin and work your way backwards to try and untangle mysteries, sometimes.

the mm in the OP really looks like smooshing/sliding indicating MD to my eyes.

you are right on with your statement.

this is also noticeable when they punched dates into the dies with either single punches or multi-number punches where the numbers are clearly different from the rest of the devices in striking/appearance. - this is ironically a good sign for counterfeit detection as well as they have no-date master dies and punch dates separately into working dies and the entire coin is uniform in apperance except the date. - i posted some coins somewhat recently that show this effect, but no one commented dissapointingly.

[IvoR1!]

Thanks for the explanation. I’ll need to see a couple of hundred more before I can pick up on these.
Also I take it now that I’m not the only one scratching my head over the divots around the mm.

Ivo

[Shleppodella1]

Wow that cinched it right up thanks again for the explain. You do have a way with that!
One last question on this then what's up with mm's that have the "mote" effect like these pictures please?

[MintErrors]

The punch used to be a round piece of steel with a mint mark on it. In combo with a mallet, they would hammer the mint mark into the working die. I can imagine, if they struck it super hard, the mint mark would have sunk in as deep as it could go. The remaining force would probably dent the die slightly. With it being slightly dented, it may not allow for it to be risen on the coin, and the metal flow would only be affected a touch. That's the best guess I have for the crater type effect around a few of the mintmarks I have seen.

[MintErrors]

Punch bounce is a theory, and I think Ken Potter wrote an article on it. That article may still be on the main page near the bottom @ https://conecaonline.org

Here is the article. Form your own opinion.

https://conecaonline.org/whats-the-c...it-serif-rpms/

As many times as I have used a hammer/mallet or other like tool in my DIY projects I cannot recall where a double punch event has ever happened to me.

I could possibly see the punch getting stuck and the mint worker needing to wiggle the punch slightly to get it out of the die, but that might not be the case at all. If that was the case, I can see it adding slight split serifs but they would possibly be weak and disappear over time due to wear and tear/ die age.

[Shleppodella1]

Wow great article were did that link send me to please was it membes area i want to read more? I've been doing alot of back reading of Errorscope and that didn't look like it.
Also the caption under the picture said CW I thought it went CCW because the lowest part of the D sherif (1st artow far left) is the first initial strike correct, then each subsequent strike is shallower than the next and walked CCW (arrow 2 & 3) which in turn made the center all oblongigated (real word?) giving it the split sherif effect he talked about. To bad there worthless its interesting cause n effect especially when oneself is not aware of effects of metal urging.

[MintErrors]

The link above is from the main page of CONECA. That is https://conecaonline.org

As far as direction, its from the primary (strongest) mintmark. You then ask yourself, from the primary mint mark, which direction are the other lesser mint marks ?

It's best to read the article below from John Wexlers website. The photos can help with the orientation and direction.

http://doubleddie.com/58243.html